The Journey from Seed Idea to Pitching TV Networks with Abra Chouinard

Announcer: Welcome to producing unscripted. What joke? And Biagio.

Angry Man: Is this some kind of joke?

Unidentified Voice: Biagio.

Biagio: Who did this episode? It’s episode 101 and we’re spotlighting a new producer. We met through this very podcast. Abra submitted her concept to us, and now we’re out together pitching it at television networks. We share the reasons ABBA’s pitch stood out the journey from seed idea to pitching TV networks, attending your very first meeting with network executives, and so much more. Plus, my new favorite saying ever.

Joke: Buck up Buttercup.

Biagio: Music courtesy Dave Pelman. Music Dave Pelman.com. Hey everybody. She’s joke, he’s Biagio. We’re married. We make unscripted film and television and want to help you do the same.

Joke: Hopefully by teaming up with us.

Biagio: All right. Well, happy 2018. To all of our listeners. This is the first podcast of the new year, and it’s one I’m so excited about. We wanted to kick off the year with something we thought would be extremely helpful for you. Now, in the past, we’ve had on guests who we’ve made TV shows with. You’ve had Andrew and Mary, Joey and Natalie, Chad. But there’s one thing we haven’t done. Now.

Joke: We know many of you listen to the podcast because you’d like to pitch a show where it’s to us or to anyone else. So today, for the first time, we are sitting down with someone who we just now starting pitching a show with. Yeah, she’s one of the new producers. We’ve met through the podcast and the newsletter, and we teamed up with her, developed the concept together and are now taking meetings around town. Hopefully we’ll make a deal soon. Right. Thanks. Please. In the meantime, though, we wanted to talk to her at this stage of the game since we’ve never done that before. Yeah. Her name is Abra and we did not know her before she submitted her show to us. But we wanted to get to know her because she did everything right.

Biagio: It was a terrific first impression. She pitched through the portal just like everybody else. Now we’re out pitching her show together at TV networks and having a blast. In fact, there’s a wacky selfie of the three of us pitching at A&E networks in the show notes for this post, which will be able to find at Producing Unscripted one.

Joke: And while we can’t say too much about the show itself, we can give you some very specific takeaways on what Abra did right and how you can do the same, whether pitching to us or anyone else.

Biagio: Yeah, so we hope this will help clear up some of the mystery of what happens once we like a show. You know, we’re going to give you the whole process from Abra finding our podcast up to us pitching at TV networks literally yesterday and today. Clapper. Welcome, welcome.

Joke: Hi, guys. I’m so glad to.

Abra Chouinard: Be here. It’s such an honor. Thank you.

Biagio: Oh, the honor is ours. So tell us a little bit about you. You are so amazingly talented. What’s up?

Abra Chouinard: Well, I don’t sleep, but I love food. No, I just I just grew up in the mountains where you got up before, you know, it was light out and you put your boots on and you got to work. So that work ethic just carries through. And in any industry, including this industry, you just get up and you work hard. There’s no room for crying to buck up, buttercup. That’s right.

Biagio: That is so awesome. I wish more people felt that way. It is. Buck up buttercup. And if you take away nothing else from this podcast is that buck up buttercup. And so.

Joke: How did you get into this business? How did you find us? How did you find about the podcast? What what made you want to do this?

Abra Chouinard: Okay, so the short of it is that when I used to get on the school bus back in grade school, I used to put on skips for the kids on the school bus. And I’ve always loved film and television. You can take nothing and turn it into something. And then I went to school in college and just started working in the industry and just split my time between the mountains and the city and working my tail off, and really looked around and felt that there was something there for this show, that there was definitely had to be something there. And I just did the research of how do I get out of my head and get it in front of the networks? And I came across to you guys and read everything about it. Listen to every single podcast and did all of my checks and balances, see what people thought. And it really was. You guys knew what to do, said A, B, and C, so I did A, B and C and here we are.

Joke: The reason there’s.

Abra Chouinard: There’s an A, B and C you must go through the process because that’s part of the bucking up in it is that there are no shortcuts. Everybody has to pay their dues. I mean, recently saw Katy Perry posted a picture of her much younger and she was playing at one of the local venues and she wrote on her post, you know, paying my dues. And that’s so true there. There aren’t any shortcuts, so you can’t get to see. You must do A and B.

Biagio: Okay.

Joke: So you found this. You learned a lot, which was great. Thank you. And then you got ready to pitch to us. What was that like? Why did you decide to pitch to us? How did you feel like you were ready to finally reach out? Well.

Abra Chouinard: That’s the other half of the thing too, is, is the getting up, that farm style, that mountain living. If you don’t get up and feed the animals, they’re not going to be there. At the end of the day, there are no eggs for breakfast. I mean, you got to go get your eggs. So there is a shelf life to things. So if you don’t get on your idea and actually commit and, and be willing to work with others and reach out and they’re taking a risk, you’re taking a risk. But come together, that idea is still on your shelf. It’s going to be there. It’s worthless. You have to get it out there.

Joke: Right. So which brings us to the submission agreement, which everybody who’s looked into pitching to us knows. It’s a it’s a, it’s it’s a one page or still. Right. But it’s very intense. You know, lawyers write it for a reason. If you pitch to anyone worth their salt in this business, they’ll make you sign a submission agreement. Understandably, for somebody new, it’s a scary thing for us. It’s it’s not. But what did that feel like for you? And and how did you interpret that?

Abra Chouinard: Okay. So I think I’m more rational. And then I get to drink beer and then I get to be irrational later when I get some IPA. No. Rationally speaking, this is a team effort. And so it’s going to take all part it all people come together as a team. So you the lawyers have their part for writing the submission. The submission agreement is there to honor a handshake, basically an agreement that everyone’s going to go in and talk about this. The submission agreement to me didn’t say, if I hand this off, somebody’s going to take my ID and steal it. I didn’t get that. What I took away from it is this is our modern handshake, Wild West style. This is how we’re agreeing to get together and work together. So I wasn’t that afraid of it, I guess because I respected the fact that this is how we do business these days. Not like 150 years. Go is quite a bit different. So I just read it, it made sense and just went with it.

Biagio: Yeah. You know, I think there’s no doubt all submission agreements, the ones we signed when we were breaking into the business hours, other ones that you can find, you know, just just by looking around. They’re lopsided. They have to be because your lawyers are like, you are not allowed to let anybody pitch to you ever, ever, ever, ever. But if you do, they have to sign all this stuff. And so it puts us in a convention. Either we say, all right, well, we’re never gonna let anybody pitch to us all. We’d be like, okay, well, if people want to pitch to us, they need to do this. That has worked out really well for us because we met so many great producers like you. We’ve put on several television projects from people who’ve pitched to us that way.

Joke: And it’s also the submission agreement doesn’t sign over rights to your project. And, you know, now we can go make it without you. The submission agreement, in essence, is really there for the person signing it to acknowledge that they have an idea, but they’re pitching it to people who work in the ideal world. So, you know, some people who work in the business, they understand that more because they’re also constantly around ideas. But if you’re not constantly around new ideas and new TV shows, you might not understand that. You know, we see or hear hundreds and hundreds of ideas per year. So if you come in with your one idea and we’re like, oh, actually, we’ve already done that one, or we already are dealing with that one, it’ll be harder for you to trust that even though that is the truth. But you from the outside might not trust that. So we don’t want to make you upset. We don’t want to make anybody else upset. So that’s what this handshake deal is. Like you said, the submission agreement is like is just a person signing. It is acknowledging that they really believe in their idea. But it could be that someone already has pitched this, which is why we stress, as Biagio, you know, in numerous podcasts, keeps hitting. If you come in with just an idea, it’s the chances of us having heard it or seen it or thought about it ourselves are very high. But what you did is you came in, like we say on the podcast, with access, with a location, with a cast, with people, and there’s no way that we can go steal that even if we want it to, because they know you, they don’t know us. And so that’s kind of where I think if you follow our guidelines in terms of finding people place in a thing and an asset, that fear should really go away.

Abra Chouinard: I totally agree. And coming from the guy on the outside, obviously not knowing you guys and then coming in and seeing it on now your side of the tracks, it shouldn’t be seen as you’re somehow giving something up. You’re actually gaining. Your name is now attached to paperwork that’s attached to a production company that’s attached. All of those things make you more powerful and give you an experience to learn as you go. And if you skip all that because you think you can’t partner with anybody, you’re not going to get very far because this is a partner business.

Biagio: That’s the thing. At some point you got to take a risk. We’ve always hoped that with now a 101 podcast episodes, people might at least figure out what we’re about, if that helps with the trust any.

Joke: But. So you came in with with a package you had, you know, cast bios, you had some links and some tape and some stuff. So. So we brought you in for a meeting.

Biagio: Yeah.

Joke: Which sometimes we go over the phone. But you were in town, so we had we had you in for a meeting. And how was that meeting for you your first time coming in? And because we wanted to know more or we were intrigued.

Abra Chouinard: Well, first off, obviously extremely excited, extremely honored. I was just like, I geek out on this stuff. So just it was all of those great emotions, all of those things. The I feel a lot of the times, not everyone, but a lot of us that are in this business are the glitter never goes away. Every moment is exciting. I just passed a bunch of crew trucks in the way in and the wardrobe back was open. I’m like, oh, let’s see what they’re you know who’s dressing what cast member today? The glitter never goes away. So being able to come in was just it was just wonderful to come in. To be honor is the best way I can say it.

Biagio: Well, that’s extremely nice. I swear, we’re not asking these questions just so you can kiss our bot. Really? But, but but I think the the thing is, you came in very confident. And I know when we were starting out, we went to those meetings. They can be they could be intense. You don’t know the person you’re meeting with. You don’t know where this is going to go. All you want to do is put your best foot forward. But you man, did you come inside. So I’m wondering, were you just as confident as you looked? Well.

Abra Chouinard: Not cocky. Confident? I don’t mean that. I mean confident with I believed in the project. That’s the kind of confidence you believe in it. Neither there’s a home for it or there’s a time for it. Not everything is at the right time. Not everything has the right home. Not every person you meet with is going to be the right person to work partner with on the project. But I was confident in the project, so that’s what I was bringing to the table is a confident project.

Biagio: You know, and that’s so crucial because what a lot of people miss out on when they pitch a project is their personal attachment and belief in it.

Joke: Yeah. And I just remember we had a ton of questions, as we usually do with these things. And what we really appreciated was you had a lot of answers, but more importantly, you were completely open and honest about the questions you didn’t have answers to, and you took a lot of copious notes. I remember that even.

Abra Chouinard: Sent us to take notes.

Joke: Even send us an email, like with a two page notes from the meeting, just as a follow up, which was also very appreciated.

Biagio: Amazing. I was like, wow, she’s really listening. This is incredible.

Joke: But but it was very it was it’s very refreshing to meet with like minded people who are like, okay, I don’t know the answer, but let me find out and I’ll get back to you. And so that was exciting for us. And I think, you know, as with any kind of partnership, like you said, you have to find the right people to collaborate with. And so for us, right away, we were like, okay, we can collaborate. You know, she’s smart, she’s prepared, she’s honest about what she knows and she doesn’t know. And so, yeah. Shortly after that meeting, we all decided, let’s do this. Let’s work together on this.

Abra Chouinard: Right? You come in and you, you need to support the team. No matter if you’re the creator or the PA, you support the team equally. And so that’s how I kind of think about it. So when I’m bringing stuff and sending stuff to you guys, it’s really just so we can all be successful.

Joke: For us, it showed that you were, that you were listening, that you were absorbing. And I think, what are the through nerves on the first meeting? Sometimes people aren’t really taking in what we’re saying. And again, a lot of times it’s nerves or sometimes it’s because they’ve looked at their project just in one particular way for so long. And then we asked them to open it up and we did the same to you. You know, you came in and you’re like, this is the show. And we’re like, okay, but what about this? What about that? What was that like? Did you feel you you were ready to, like, start looking at it from different angles? Or did it feel a little bit like, you know, we’re kind of making your baby change?

Abra Chouinard: I look at it as your coach sees what you can’t see. So when you come in and you’re pitching something at the table, what you guys see, I can’t see. So I’m absolutely going to take those notes and listen and try to look at it from a new set of glasses, put a new lenses on, because you might see something that can make the show more incredible than I could even imagine, but I wouldn’t know if I’m just locked in. So I look at opportunities that you can always learn from everyone around you. So every time somebody offers something, take it in before you reject it.

Biagio: That’s incredibly well said. I love that the coach sees what you can.

Joke: Some people might be very attached to a certain vision for their project, and that’s fine. I totally respect that. If we can’t see that vision selling, then we can’t be helpful.

Biagio: Then we’re not. We’re not the right person.

Joke: Not then. This isn’t the right partnership. And that’s totally fine because someone else may see it exactly the way you see it. If you’re coming here and you’re asking for our opinion, you know, we’ll give it. And then if we can all figure out a way that, like, okay, we can see the grand vision together, then let’s team up if, if we can and we’re not going to go anywhere, then, you know, we don’t want to hinder the project. And, you know, it’s hard enough to get something going and get something picked up that we don’t need to start from a place of disagreement. But we were all on the same page. We we decided to team up.

Biagio: So at that point we put together a collaboration agreement. Now collaboration agreement is very different than a submission agreement.

Joke: The submission agreement is purely you acknowledging we’re in the idea of business. And maybe we could have possibly heard this idea before. The collaboration agreement is us actually saying, okay, let’s do this. Let’s partner up for a set amount of time. We’re going to try and sell this. And then when we sell this diesel, be to terms of how we can work together.

Biagio: Right. And we we would never pitch a project before doing that collaboration agreement, making sure we’re all on the same page. It’s really important for the producers to know what they can believably get out of a project and where the whole thing is headed. So that’s that’s all part of putting together that collaboration agreement.

Joke: So once the agreement is signed, you get started. We start working together on these pitch materials. But the truth is that that was almost a year ago, right?

Biagio: A year, people a year.

Abra Chouinard: Yep.

Joke: So I think that’s something that most people also don’t quite understand. You know, some projects might be ready, set, go. It’s very simple, very straightforward. But because it is a place people, location, assets, we kind of had to find the right way in and we had to build the relationships. Even though you already had the relationships with the cast, we kept pushing you to push them further so they could give you more. And so some of that time was spent waiting until the cast was ready, slowly, kind of getting them there and building that trust, all of us with them. But that year, what did you ever be like? Why is this taking so long.

Abra Chouinard: For me? No, because again, I’ll throw another analogy. The little farmer who’s pulling on those seedlings is not going to make those seedlings grow any faster. All you’re going to do is kill your crop. And I think I have all of these.

Biagio: I.

Abra Chouinard: Love it. We just need to have the calendar. Just every.

Joke: Day has a nice little thing.

Biagio: I love it.

Abra Chouinard: But that’s I mean, realistically, that’s what this is. I mean, as you said, some projects are just super fast. One, two, three out the gate and some take longer. And where this gestation is what it is and where where we’re at. And our meeting yesterday was amazing. I wouldn’t have wanted to change anything. I wouldn’t go back and change at all. So to answer your question. No, I’m not ever frustrated or stress out that it takes a long time being the producer, being on this side of the creator, sometimes the casting, that someone has lost interest maybe. So I need to go back to them. A lot of hand-holding. They don’t see everything. They don’t understand. They’re not in it in the day to day. They’re not in the emails. So just making sure that you’re communicating with them and you’re always open and honest, like you’re saying that transparency so they can trust you is really where it’s at. So when you say ABC they trust that and then you’re good to go. That would be the only thing that’s been just managing that.

Joke: Yeah. And I mean you did great. You ended up putting the cast on tape, I think over the course of three different times over the course of that year. And I and thank you for trusting us because I do believe had we gone out with the project with the first tape, that we wouldn’t have gotten the response that we got.

Abra Chouinard: Absolutely.

Joke: I agree with going out with the with the tape that we currently have. So thanks for trusting us. And again, thank you for doing that work and for putting those boots on and working with them because that’s that’s that’s key because we ask you to bring us talent. And again, going back to the submission agreement where, you know, we can’t do that show without you because it’s your talent that means that it’s also on you to keep that relationship going with the talent. Like you just said, sometimes they get Ansi, sometimes, you know, they might get insecure for whatever reason that it is to keep them involved. And, you know, we got on on the Skype with them at some point to, you know, so that helps. But, you know, it’s about communicating that with us and for all of us together now that we’re a team keeping that cast there and then and then pushing them to get to the place where we can do the best tape possible to get positive meetings.

Abra Chouinard: That brings it around to saying that hugely. I feel that you as the producer, the creator on this project, if you don’t trust the team you’re working with up the ladder, that’s going to translate down the ladder to the cast. And that was hugely important for me that I went in this confident in the project, met you guys, confident in our working relationship. So when the cast did get Ansi and I answered their questions and was there for them, they were confident in me because I was confident all the way up. And I believe that’s huge because if you’re worried about the submission agreement, not really sure. You’re kind of on flighty about the whole thing. Everyone down from you is going to feel that too. And your project is already on weak legs. I really, really believe you should be super confident with your relationships up so you can trickle that down as well.

Biagio: That’s great. Now let’s talk about that year. Because that year because because you you actually had a lot of homework. We mentioned a little bit about you filming talk talk us through for people who don’t realize, because again, we always say we will never, ever ask you for money, but we will ask you to put time in. We all have to put in time on these things. And you did you put in your time? What were you doing during that time? What were some of the things you had to do?

Abra Chouinard: Wow, okay. A lot. Yes. At launch the podcast.

Biagio: No.

Abra Chouinard: Okay. So all the things that needed to happen were obviously you start with an idea and then you need to flush it out. And then after we met and there was a direction that it could go, it was going and getting either location. It was setting up times with the cast, and obviously everyone has families and lives and being sensitive to that and going slow and talking with them. A lot of handholding again, just sitting down and making sure they’re comfortable because you are asking them to sign their life up for something. You can’t just assume they’re like, oh yeah, totally. Like everything. You got it, you got it. You got to work with these. And again, as what you guys say very specifically on the podcast, great ideas aren’t sitting here in Los Angeles necessarily. They’re out in your backyard. So the people in your backyard aren’t working in this industry every day, and they do need someone confident and trustworthy next to them if you want this project to succeed. So most of my time probably was spent doing that. People management people. That’s a good way to say it was.

Biagio: So important. Yeah. Keeping the cast, keeping the cast engaged, excited and willing to work with you. You also filmed a lot of footage, right? So you’re kind of like filming footage and sending us cards. Yes.

Abra Chouinard: With lots of.

Joke: Excellent shot logs.

Biagio: Excellent shot. Yes, yes. Not. She didn’t just send footage. She sent the most detailed, beautiful, wonderful, typed out shot logs I’ve ever seen in my life. I was like, this is amazing. It was so helpful. And I imagine it was helpful for you because next you had to come into our offices and do a little work on one of the bays here. Right?

Abra Chouinard: Absolutely. Printed him out, sat down, just I knew that’s why I did that work, and I didn’t know I would necessarily be the one that would be looking at the shot logs to do the work, but I prepared them so that whoever got them would be able to do the work. Ultimately, it became me. So I was proud that I did the work to cut down the work later. Does that make sense? Because whoever was going to end up getting it doesn’t matter if creator or PA, you do the work so that you’re setting the next person up for success. And that happened to be myself. So it was. I was able to edit much quicker than if I hadn’t done that. I would have been here for much longer.

Biagio: Right now. How well did you know Adobe Premiere already? Did you know a little bit, a lot. Did you learn mostly here?

Abra Chouinard: I knew it way back in the day when I went to art school is where I picked it up. But then I went over to Final Cut for a while and then went back to premiere. I like I think I do them both, but I like premiere. But I will say, obviously you’re coming into your offices, you get a temporary keycard and the bathroom key and there’s people on their people working, and you sit down at this desk and it’s like, okay, and now be productive. And even though, you know, you have the skills to do it, it’s intimidating. Not a bad way. But, I mean, you’re the guy coming in and you really have to shine. Yeah. So those things, I mean, we don’t we don’t.

Joke: Ask everybody to do that. I think, you know, you made it very clear early on that you wanted to learn as much as possible.

Abra Chouinard: Absolutely.

Joke: And so, you know, that’s that’s why we have this podcast. But whenever we team up with someone, we’re always much of an open book to be like, okay, well, if you want to learn the process, then come in and work the process.

Biagio: And some people don’t. They’re like, no, no, really, here’s my show. See if you can make it work. And we’ve done those two. Yeah. Then we just go and we do all the editing and we just take care of it. But the point is for you to get out of it what you hope to get out.

Abra Chouinard: Of it. Yes. And that so holds true because you guys say that we will give you as much of that you want to learn or not want to learn in this. And you say that, you state that and it is 100% true. I mean, 100%. It’s really cool because it’s a live, actual production. I have learned so much in this year. It’s amazing. Thank you guys. I mean, really, that’s awesome.

Joke: And you know, just for the record, you’ve worked on this for, you know, almost a year. We’ve been working on it with you for almost a year. None of us had seen a penny. So I think that’s another part where people have to understand is we’re doing this. You’re investing in a project, you’re investing in what you believe in, right? And so as a company, we choose a few of those projects that we’re like, okay, this is the ones that we were in. We believe this has a chance of selling, but it’s never guaranteed. It’s always a long shot. And especially when you’re partnering up with someone, from our perspective, you know, we hope that you would be everything that you turned out to be, but, you know, could be anything, right? Like to get in a way, you might have had a family emergency that took you out of of, you know, working on this project and then, you know, the time we invested be gone as well. So I think that that’s important, that it’s like, you know, we’re we’re of same mind. We’re all in agreement that this is a project worth working on, and then we all work on it.

Abra Chouinard: I mean, that’s the concept of the working farm. Again, another farm analogy. You have to wait till the crops grow and then their season comes before you can harvest them. And if you go swimming all day or you’re messing around and you’re not there to tend to the garden, there won’t be, you know, anything at the end of the summer. So everyone has to invest their time in it to get that. And being tender, I should say, is the best way to say it. Being tender along the way with each other, with your cast, with yourself for the long haul because the idea is that it has longevity, scalability and sustainability. And if you don’t treat it like that along the way, you’re just going to burn out or burn someone else out, or just it’s just going to crush the whole thing.

Joke: I’m loving these farm analogies, by the way.

Biagio: I was like, I.

Abra Chouinard: Have no idea.

Joke: Reality television production was like farming, but I love it.

Abra Chouinard: It very much is.

Joke: This is awesome.

Biagio: So. So I can’t think of a funny farming analogy. I was gonna try to come up with one as a segue. I’m not that clever, but. So you did all, you did all these amazing string outs, and then, you know, you had hand it off to us because we go and we edit a tape at that point. In this case, I edited personally, I edited the graphics. But you’re letting go of your baby and you’re trusting us. How was that for you?

Abra Chouinard: Well, of course, the first thing is. Oh, okay. Well, you know, I mean, it’s reality. It’s like you knew that was coming. I mean, there’s a point where you kind of knew your kids are going to grow up and move away. Everyone can pretend that’s not going to happen. We all know that’s going to happen. We’re all cry about it. And oh, man, I already say it to my kids. They can’t grow any bigger as it is because I they grow.

Joke: So fast and they’re five and ten.

Abra Chouinard: Yes. And I’m already like, stop growing. So yes, you know that day is going to come. It’s it’s two sided. So one side is I’m a really excited to see what you guys make. I’m really excited to see what’s coming back. Then on the other half you’re kind of terrified. What if it’s nothing like you want? But then that comes back on to you, the creator again. Did you communicate well enough? Did you have enough confidence in the story that you brought, that someone else is able to interpret that? And if they can, then you know you’ve done your job. And when I got the tape back, I was just amazed. It was exactly it told the story. It honored everything we talked about and honored the cast in the way that they wanted the story. So it all, it all came full circle and I felt good. It was another badge of honor. I could put another wing on, you know, on my jacket that I conveyed the story so that you could interpret that in a visual way.

Biagio: Well, you’re exactly right. You did that perfectly. We understood the vision from the beginning. And, you know, one of the things that is interesting, too, is, you know, at a certain point, you need to let your subjects know, hey, this is the kind of show we’re making. So you shared the tape with some of the people on the tape and how did they respond?

Abra Chouinard: It was very positive. They were nervous. I think they were the most nervous. Well, I know they were the most nervous because it’s.

Joke: Their face. It’s their.

Abra Chouinard: Life, it’s. Invitation the furthest away from the production because they’re not in the everyday emails or anything they may be going on. They don’t know. They’re not in your head, the creator, they’re not seeing what you’re seeing. So they’re the furthest from it. So they’re worried. I know that they’re concerned. Will you make will you honor what they’re saying? And I don’t mean honor in a military kind of honor way, but I mean trust. Yes. And trust. This is our life. Does that look like my life?

Joke: Yeah. I think a lot of times with talent, they want to come across as authentic as they live their life. You know, if you if you start shaping their, their lives or what they say and things that that don’t feel natural or don’t feel authentic for them, then it’s much harder for them to trust the process moving forward. Absolutely. Every step of the way. Again, this is just at the pitching stage. It’s important to keep that trust with the cast. And then obviously once you you’ve built a series, it’s important to keep that because fingers crossed in success, you’re going for ten seasons. You don’t want them watching season one in and saying, this is nothing at all to what my life is like.

Abra Chouinard: Exactly. And that trust. Also, let’s say we get some callbacks on what we’ve done this week, and they are everything we had hoped for. And now we are going to go start shooting the actual cast. They’re going to be even more nervous because now it’s very real. We’ve got some big people with some big stuff in the cameras in their face, like it’s a big thing and they’re going to be nervous at that point. Are they going to be able to live up to what I’ve set up? And I’m like, it just be you. You know, it’s always the thing. That’s why we’re here is just capture you, being you. But then they get worried about being them. So again, that whole people management and trust and I can fingers crossed this keeps going and we get to where we want to go. But I can see that as we’re going, there’s always going to be something new that I need to learn and people management and it never ends. Even in season ten. It’s gonna be different than season one if we get that far. And we talked about.

Joke: This even during this stage, right? We’re like, as soon as I turn the camera on, they get really nervous. And I was like, well, just pretend you’re playing with the batteries for a while. So they just get used to sitting in front of the camera.

Abra Chouinard: I did that so many times, yes. But yeah, and it worked. It’s totally worked. Totally works.

Joke: It’s totally natural for people to feel nervous when all of a sudden the camera, I mean, I’m the same way. I’m not a not an on camera person or loving that on camera spot. So it’s like when it starts, you’re like, okay, well, let me just sit here for like ten minutes, get used to it, and then, you know, then it’s easier just to just to be authentic and, you know, not worry about the camera. So, so yeah, I love that you did that and that it really ended up working. So.

Biagio: So okay. So now. Hey, it’s the fun part. We’re out together pitching, getting really good responses. Now before we get into the pitch and your experience in it, I need the couch. This because we don’t always take new producers in the room with us for various reasons. It could be that the show is centered around a specific character, and it’s more important to think that character into the room. It could be that the person lives out of town, and it doesn’t make sense for the fly in, especially since networks cancel meetings at the last minute all the time. But in this case, it was so important to us to have you in the room, because with your access and with your knowledge, you just you bring this wealth of information and you’re able to paint this picture. We could never paint. Every single time an executive ask you a question, you have these amazing answers because you live there with these people. It’s not something me and Joe could ever come up with on our own, right?

Joke: And we might have answers, but we don’t have the anecdotes that you can provide that bring the color. Right. So I think depending on the show, we find it. It could be very useful to have the producer in the room and sometimes it doesn’t. Or, you know, it depends very much on the show, but you’ve been in there with us.

Biagio: Also brings very good props. We can’t say what they are, but literally props pulled out and laid on the table in the exact same. Like what was amazing. Even our agent, we sort of pictured our agent or agent like, oh my gosh, it was great. It was fantastic.

Joke: So. So what was it like for you? Your the first pitch going in there, going to the networks, the whole thing.

Abra Chouinard: Well obviously you got to geek out a little bit. As I said earlier the glitter. So I’m trying to take nonchalant selfies in the lobby like hopefully nobody notices. Look at me.

Biagio: Who cares if they notice you earned your way in there?

Abra Chouinard: I know, but just in case, I don’t want to be that guy. But it was. It’s impressive. Obviously. Again, another stripe on your shoulder. I can’t believe I’m here. Well, not in a I don’t have something of value. I just mean I’m so have so much gratitude. I should say. I’m so grateful to be here to have gotten this far. Because any along the process anyway, a show can just not go any further.

Joke: 100%.

Abra Chouinard: Yeah, I think I still have to process it a little bit because I’m still a little star struck by the whole situation. But getting in there again, it’s a bring that farm thing back. You got to put on your game face and make sure that your hat straight, and you get in there and you do what you need to do and you stay focused and you guys are sitting there, but all of the cast and everybody standing behind me, they’re all waiting to hear how we how we’re doing. That’s a lot of pressure. So I don’t want to mess up in there. So I really need to just stay focused.

Biagio: It’s that and you did. And so, you know, we tried to give you a little bit of prep before before the meeting. But you know, we go and sit down in a certain point. You know, this executive walks in. And so, you know, I mean, how did you feel at that moment. Did anything change for you or you’re just like, all right.

Abra Chouinard: It’s really real that this isn’t a dream anymore. Like, that’s that guy, and he’s standing right there and he’s looking at me and he’s shaking my hand and saying, nice to meet me. Wow. It was really cool.

Biagio: It was. And you know what? He was just as excited to meet you, believe me.

Abra Chouinard: Oh, fantastic.

Biagio: He was so excited. It was actually we walked out of the pitch meeting and I went, Abra, you’re gonna get so spoiled because pitch meetings don’t go like that. Normally. It’s like he was. He was, you know, listen, there’s a million reasons why the show may or may not happen, but they have an executive in the room. Be that effusive is rare. And so I didn’t want her to, like, not be upset if at the next meeting is they’re not jumping up and down like the way this this exact was, you know. But but I think you felt that it was a positive meeting, right.

Abra Chouinard: It did. It felt positive. And interestingly enough, it kind of comes down to just also having people skills, I think at any level. So when you’re dealing with the cast, you have to have those type of people skills. And when we’re in the room working, we have to have this type of people skills. And when you’re in that room with those network people, you have to have those people skills. So being able to connect with them on their level is super important. And I was very careful to make sure, you know, you can’t be too childish or too jokey. So I was very sensitive to that and tried to pay attention to the nuances and work with them and craftily present in a way that would put our project in the very best light.

Joke: Yeah. And I think as part of the prep, you know, we told you because it’s a dance, it’s a dance, even for us every day. Because you never know how this executive will react to this project. They might get it right away, at which point you could just answer fun questions. They might not get it, at which point you have to do more selling. They might get it, but it’s not for them. At which point the entire meeting switches gears and changes really into more of a general meeting. So I think it’s definitely a dance. But one of the things we told you is part of the prep that we also kind of live by is once the questions start coming, it’s it’s really listening, very careful to what they’re actually asking and only answering that. Right. It’s almost a little bit like when you’re on the stand and getting cross-examined, you know, because.

Biagio: It is don’t give up too much.

Abra Chouinard: You want to you.

Joke: Want to see where they’re going. And if it’s like, oh, that, that I can answer that positively and keep the meeting positive and pushing towards the cell. You go that way if you’re like, oh, he probably is not going to like that answer. There’s a little more dancing around and and that stuff obviously always being honest. But you know, there’s there’s just a dance that that develops.

Abra Chouinard: And to prep I’m drinking a Thai iced tea at lunch and it say this, but don’t say this, but if you say this, say this and don’t worry, we’re here in case you say too much. And I was like, oh boy, I should spike this tea. I did not, but I was thinking, maybe, maybe this is the IPA, maybe I need to have that. Before going in. You had to stay focused. Stay focused.

Biagio: It was good. It was. Well, we did tell you. Listen, there’s not really anything you’re going to be able to say that will completely tank the meeting, you know. Right. Right. But but I think the important thing was we wanted you to know we had your back and. Yeah. Don’t say too much. Yeah, exactly. Say the wrong thing. The pitch can end on a very sour note when suddenly go, oh, it’s like that. That’s not for us. So.

Abra Chouinard: But it’s.

Joke: Also and again, not to give too much away about the show, but to show is set in a very kind of unknown location. And so when we showed the tape and then pretty much the very first or second question was like, where, where is this? And you told him and he was like, oh, I know that place. It’s like, oh, man, this whole meeting now changes because now there’s really no exaggerating. And there’s really, you know, their good thing that we have a solid pitch that is authentic to what’s happening and that we didn’t fudge because we would have been called out.

Abra Chouinard: Oh, man. Absolutely. And that’s again where the people skills came in, where once you know something, somebody’s favorite sports team or whatever, they’re kind of their mindset is you can adapt to that. And when once we it was one on one and it kind of looks at me, it’s like I’m standing there naked. No, there’s no hiding anything. You’re right. I mean, it is because it was honest and authentic all the way through. Then when the questions came out, he mentioned some stuff I was able to answer. We’d been in the exact same physical spot at the exact same physical time. Obviously a little bit of camaraderie came out, but it was also testing to make sure that he knew that. We knew that he knew. Right, exactly.

Biagio: Yeah, yeah.

Joke: But this is part of the reason that, you know, we like our projects to be authentic and real because it’s one of those things. Right? Like if you lie once, then now you have to keep track of all the lies. And some some production companies, you know, don’t mind stretching the truth in the sizzle tapes and really kind of, you know, either re-editing people’s performances or the place or the this or that, and then, you know, you have to keep track of that. And if someone calls you on it, you know, it becomes hard. I think.

Biagio: We don’t do any of that.

Joke: We don’t do that and we don’t do that. And yet, you know, this meeting was another perfect example of why we don’t do that. Because you never know if someone went through there once on a vacation or, you know, you never know. So it was great having you there to be able to to share those anecdotes with them. But but yeah, again, if you can be passionate and you can be confident in your project, then whatever questions come at you, you just respond honestly and then you have nothing to worry about.

Biagio: Well, I want to move on because obviously now it’s been a year or so looking back, just kind of wondering, you know, what are some things you learned in the process that might be useful for others to know?

Abra Chouinard: Key takeaways would be the weakest link in the chain fails the chain. And really you’re going to be the weakest link. So you always have to make sure you’re the strongest you possibly can be, that you have your stuff together, that you have the cast trust you, trust yourself. You trust everything around you. And as you just said, joke. The not having to worry about a lie that you’re covering up or any of that. There’s no way, I think, a show you could do a whole show or continue on it. With that much weight on your shoulders, it would kill you or you’d become an alcoholic. I’m not really sure. One of the two. I mean, it would be so much that I really think that going into it, having the patience and just being honest with yourself, with the whole project and never try to, oh, if I just fake this, it’ll make it that much better. Don’t go there. It will. It won’t end well. I don’t think you can carry the weight forever like that. That’d be one huge takeaway.

Biagio: What advice would you give to other aspiring producers to help them stand out because you stood out?

Abra Chouinard: Okay. That’s. Yes. So what I did was obviously I read producing unscripted, I read everything, then I listened to all the podcasts and I took copious notes, as we’ve already covered. And I did what you said because what you said made sense, and what you said produced results, which was how valuable are you? Do you have skills using premiere? Do you know how to use a camera? Do you go through your list of how valuable you are as a person, the things you have around you and your life, or that you could possibly have access to, and taking all of those. You may be able to find a show within within that, or just let it sit in the crockpot in the back of your head for a while and something might come of it. But that’s that’s what I did, is I just sat down, took what you guys said to do, and I just did it. And here we are.

Biagio: Yeah, you did it, all right. I mean, we were like, wow. A-plus student. What would you tell people listening to to this podcast who wonder whether or not they should pitch to us?

Abra Chouinard: What would I tell people?

Biagio: They’re like, should I just pitch to a couple people on a podcast? Seems crazy.

Abra Chouinard: Well, you guys do the podcast because you’re a production company, so it’s something you do on the side. It’s not that you started a podcast and then started a production company, so. So people should always keep that in mind. And the way you guys have things set up, you’re giving independent creators a voice in the unscripted world and it’s amazing. Actually, I think it’s really, really amazing. And there isn’t anything scary. The only thing you might be scared of, the fear that you might have, is that you’re not confident in your project or yourself, because if you’re solid, there’s no reason you can’t bring it to the table. And whatever’s going to happen is going to happen.

Joke: So now that you’ve kind of gone through this process and again, fingers crossed we get an offer and we end up making the TV show. But, you know, a lot of people are just afraid of the unknown. And a lot of people who are starting out don’t, you know, either aren’t in this town. You were already in this town, so you saw some of it. But for people who are from out of this town don’t quite understand it. There’s there’s a fear of what happens in big Hollywood and, you know, swimming with sharks and all of that stuff. So how would you alleviate some of their fears again, what are its esser with other people? Because I think you’re right. A lot of times people are scared to take the next step and then don’t, which means I’d or their TV show concept will never make it to air. So. So how do you what advice would you give to those people to just get over that hump and just to dive in and try it? Okay.

Abra Chouinard: So fear is broken down into false events appearing real. So you’re already right. You’re already afraid of something that’s not happening, so it stops you from doing it. Oh, they’re going to take my idea, so I can’t do it. Oh, I can’t pitch or these things in. Maybe you’re not being honest with yourself and going, wow, if this idea was good, then I would actually have to make notes, you know, notes page or something. Maybe you hate notes, I don’t know, but whatever the fear is, I would analyze that and take a look at what false events have you already created in your head. And then there’s the side of reality. This is the reality over here. Everybody has an electric bill. Unless you have Tesla’s new home power bank thing and Solar Roof.

Joke: Or something.

Abra Chouinard: But everybody has that. Most people have kids, you know, eventually they have to go to college. Whatever the case is, we’re all in the same bucket together. So the only way the world can move forward is if we all work together. So if you have a great idea and partnering to get it out there is the most sensible thing to do. Nobody is in the business to steal ideas. And as you guys said, you don’t know the people I know. So even if I told you the idea, you still wouldn’t know the people that I know to get that idea to where it needed to go. And I think that’s most unscripted shows. You can’t take somebody idea and go find some other cast in some other place. It’s the exact same story.

Biagio: That’s never it wouldn’t work.

Abra Chouinard: It wouldn’t work because it’s not that story. You just need to not have that fear.

Biagio: At a certain point, you just got to throw your hat in the ring, right? I mean, that’s what we did. That’s what you did. Buck up buttercup, buck up buttercup. Well, well, this has been like one of the most inspirational podcasts I think we’ve ever done. It loved every single one of your farm analogies. And I think you and I just think like you have done such an amazing job of starting with the seed of an idea and actually turning it into a package and following through and proving your value. So thank you so much for being here today.

Abra Chouinard: And.

Joke: Great way to start the year.

Biagio: Great way to start.

Abra Chouinard: With you. But I do want to credit you guys. I only had an idea, but it’s all the work that you’ve done to information out there for us creators to find and then do something with. I wouldn’t be sitting here if you didn’t do that. So there was already a collaboration happening before we even collaborated, if that makes sense.

Joke: Well, another thing that that that we hear a lot and we’ve learned the hard way, is there is no such thing as teaching. There’s only learning. So yes, we’ve put it out there, but kudos to you for doing it.

Abra Chouinard: Thank you. Yeah, it was there and I took it and I put it into my body. And I did what you said. And here we are pitching to networks. So it’s possible.

Biagio: And you know, if you if you’re listening and maybe you haven’t heard the podcast before, you’re not sure about, you know, producing unscripted. So producing unscripted. Com is basically our virtual mentorship for people who want to get into unscripted. It’s totally free. It doesn’t cost anything to listen to its podcast. We have two free ebooks that you can read right there or download as long as you tweet or Facebook it. But everything is free and it’s all knowledge that we wish we had when we were starting out. And I can tell you, it doesn’t matter how good a concept as it comes into us, if we don’t feel like the executive is going to respond well in the room, we don’t team up on it. So it’s not just that Abra did everything right, it’s that she also brought us a project that really made sense for some specific networks. And those are all things you can learn at the Producing Unscripted site. Now in the rest of 2018, we have some awesome guests coming your way. We have a variety of industry professionals. We have a podcast coming up with Todd Lindsay, who we recently sold Unmasking a Killer With, which is going to air later this year on CNN and HLN and so much other fun stuff. So, you know, if you would like to subscribe, head on over to producing on iTunes and subscribe. We’d love to have yet, you guys, you ladies want to say, because I don’t want to end on my silly voice.

Joke: No. Now we just gotta, you know, grab a quick bite to eat and go to our next pitch meeting.

Abra Chouinard: Yeah.

Joke: Like.

Abra Chouinard: The next network meeting. All right, so I know I’m already geeking out on it. I’m geeking out to be here. So thank you guys so much. Honestly, you guys really are the real deal. You honestly, what you say is true and what you’re obviously what you’re teaching. I’m learning here I am. So thank you.

Biagio: Well thank you. Let’s go sell this show. Producing Unscripted with Joke and Biagio.