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Announcer: Welcome to Producing Unscripted with Joke and Biagio.
Angry Man: Is this some kind of joke?
Unidentified Voice: Biagio.
Biagio: Who did this episode? It’s episode 94 and we’ve got five tips to help you develop deep dive true crime series. What is a deep dive series? How does it work? Understanding the real people who share their stories on series like these and your responsibility to them. Announcing our new true crime series coming to CNN and HLN and. Where the heck have we been for the last two months? Music courtesy Dave Pelman and music Dave Pelman.com. Hey, everybody. She’s joke. She’s Biagio. We’re married. We make unscripted film and television and want to help you do the same.
Joke: Hopefully by teaming up with us. All right. Well, first of all.
Biagio: Thank you so much to everybody who reached out with kind words of encouragement and questions about where we’ve been. For almost four years, we’ve put out podcasts.
Joke: Pretty much.
Biagio: Every.
Joke: Two weeks, and I think this is the longest break I think, that we’ve taken so far. Right, honey? Yeah. I’m sorry. We needed a little bit of a break. I mean, in our defense, one, we were busy, but then we also got sick because we were like, oh, maybe we should come back. And then neither of us had a voice. And then I think somewhere in there, there was a spring break trip for the kids. And anyway.
Biagio: It was a lot. Not to mention that we were in production on a bunch of stuff, both going to series and in development. So it was it got very busy. And so we said, okay, well, we’re gonna take a little break before episode 94, which we’re back with today. And before we get too far into it, first I want to I want to give a shout out to School of Motion, which is one of my favorite geeky podcasts. And if you missed it, while we were away, we actually guested on there. They had us on their podcast and we spilled the beans about making unscripted TV, didn’t we, honey?
Joke: Yeah, sure.
Biagio: Yeah. Well, well, Joey grilled us anyway. We talked about budgets. We talked about numbers. We talked about how real is reality TV, the spectrum of it. If you haven’t heard it, I definitely suggest checking it out. I’ll link to it in today’s show notes. Now, today is episode 94, so you’ll be able to find today’s nodes over at Producing Unscripted. 094. Brings us to the topic of today’s podcast episode. We’re calling it five Tips to Develop Deep Dive True Crime Series.
Joke: And this comes from a recent project that was announced that we’ve been very excited about, but we hadn’t been able to talk about on the podcast.
Biagio: We couldn’t talk about it at all. It’s been super top secret and we still can’t say much. But before before we mentioned the project, what is a deep dive true crime series now? A deep dive crime series, you know, is is a series that looks at one specific case and breaks that case down on a lot of different levels that span multiple episodes. We’ve all seen probably The Jinx by now, which is a really great example of this. Making a murderer is another recent series has done this serial. The podcast, in a lot of ways was was also under this gene. And so we want to share some really specific tips that you should think about if you want to develop true crime, whether you’re going to pitch it to us or anybody else or a network, or you’re doing an independent project. And I also want to make an important statement up near the top of this podcast, because I realize me and joke are pretty cheerful people. We tend to have a pretty good sense of humor, but I want to say true crime as a jara. It’s a serious jara. It’s a lot of responsibility to tell a true crime story, and it’s a responsibility a producer needs to take very seriously. You’re dealing with people who have gone through horrible things in their lives, and you need to understand that for them to open up and tell their story is a big deal. You’re not just making sheer entertainment. And again, I know that me and joke, you know, we are we’re optimistic. We’re fun people. We like to joke around. But I want people to know that true crime isn’t something you just get into just to to make a show, you know, it needs to have, I think, a bigger purpose.
Joke: Yeah. And it’s one of those things where, you know, we’ve always felt like we needed to be able to sit in a room with the people on our TV shows and watch it with them and feel okay with that. But that kind of honesty and that kind of keeping a check takes on a whole other level when you’re talking about true crime. Because for most reality shows, you know, let’s be honest, these people signed up, you know, they auditioned for a show to they went through a whole process. They signed a big contract. They are participants in the genre. When you’re doing true crime shows. These are everyday people who didn’t ask for this, who something horrible happened to them, or a loved one who’s law enforcement. This is just their job. Nobody wanted to be a TV star. And so you are asking to tell their story. You have to be extra careful with that. These are not people trying to be on television. These are people who, you know, something happened to them and you want to document and share that story with the world. It’s different as a producer. You have to be aware of it. You have to be respectful of it and you have to earn their trust even more so.
Biagio: That said, we are very excited to tell you about a series that’s near and dear to our hearts, something that we worked on for a couple of years, something that the producer who brought it to us has been on for nearly a decade, and it’s called Unmasking the Killer. It was just announced by CNN and HLN, who were thrilled to be working with on this particular series. Now, I can’t say a whole lot about it, but I do want to read you some of the press release that they put out, which I can which I can share, because it’s a press release from their press release, a new five part series, Ten Years in the making, takes viewers inside the investigation, the case files and the mind of the Golden State Killer, a man believed to be the most prolific uncaught rapist and serial killer in the nation. With exclusive cooperation from law enforcement and survivors, the docu series will examine the historical and social ramifications of the Golden State killers reign of terror, explore the advances in forensic technology, and highlight the legal changes to our justice system that his crime spree spurred. Unmasking a killer is executive produced by Joe Continuing and Biagio Messina of Joe Productions, with supervising producer Todd Lindsey. Now stay tuned for a future podcast with Todd, a producer who actually brought us the initial concept for the series, and we developed it together. But we wanted to bring this back to some useful information that for all of you, for anyone who is interested in the John or thinking about the genre, whether you’re ever going to pitch anything to us or anything else, or you’re a production company looking to do your own, we think these tips will be very helpful for you. So the first thing that we want to talk about, tip number one, know why you want to tell a particular story. Now this is important not just for true crime deep dives, but really for any true crime. Like it has to be more than just pure entertainment value. I think documentarians get this naturally, and a lot of people who maybe have come up more on the reality side, it’s easier to lose a little bit track of it, because if you’re only telling true crime purely from an entertainment perspective, it’s just exploitive, you know? And I don’t think that’s why any of us got into this or in the storytelling, you know, in general. Like you hope that your stories can do some good in the world. So why are you want to do you want to tell this particular case who is benefiting? Are you trying to to catch someone you know, as our current project alludes to, are you supporting someone in spreading their personal message of triumph? Someone who’s been through something horrible and come out the other side and wants to help other survivors, you know, are you helping them family memorialize their loved one, you know, why are you telling the story? Yeah, it’s.
Joke: Also, you know, the first question that the network will ask, right? It’s like, why? Why this? Why this now? And sometimes, you know, you’re trying to right or wrong or, you know, shed light on an injustice or sometimes it’s as simple as, you know, these victims came forward and this story has never been told, or we came across all this new archival footage or evidence that, you know, might change something, either with this particular case or this case could change something in the legal system. So so it’s really the why now? Why why are we telling this story now?
Biagio: Okay. So that brings us to tip number two, something that’s very important for all of you to consider, not just in true crime, but any series. What are you attaching? Okay. Now we’ve talked about this over and over again in our 94 episodes at this point. About that, it’s so important not to just pitch an idea. You need the pitch, a package. You need to pull together proof that you have more than just an idea off the top of your head. It’s not enough in this case, just to know about an interesting case or a case that needs to be solved, you need to be able to answer questions like who is ready to share their story? You know, have you spent have you personally spent months or even years getting to know the key people involved in the case? Have you earned their trust? You know, have you proved to them that you’re in this for the right reasons, that you’re taking a more documentary approach, approach that you’re also interested in what they would get out of sharing their story. Because why should anybody open up to you and bare their soul if they’re not also getting something out of it? Have you been able to make those connections, earn that trust, and let people know that their story is important to you? Again, not just from an entertainment perspective? And on top of that, will law enforcement talk to you and be open about the case?
Joke: Yeah, I think it’s one of the the misconceptions in, in this form of storytelling is that, oh, it’s very easy to book and it’s not it’s actually very hard to get people to sit down. And because a lot of times you’re asking them to relive the worst part of their life or, you know, sometimes maybe people failed at something and it’s hard to go back to. And so I think it’s it’s it’s important that when you sell the project or when you’re ready to go out and pitch the project, that you already have some of those connections on lock, because if not, there’s no you have no claim to this. Right? It’s if if your plan is just to take what’s in the public already anyway, public domain in terms of court records that are public or whatever, there’s nothing that will set your project apart from the next person who might jump on that case. So if it’s, you know, you have a relationship with the family or you have a relationship with law enforcement or or you have a relationship with just the sheer amount of people, and you know, where some another production might need, you know, ten months of pre-production, you’re ready to go tomorrow or, or you have access to archival that somebody else might not have. So it’s like, what what makes this case and you a special package.
Biagio: Yeah. I mean, it’s like any other it’s like any other project you try to put together, right? You want to add value to how the story is going to be told. And if you don’t, you need to move on to a project where you can add value. I mean, that’s the base of what we’ve talked about over and over again on this podcast. Okay. So that brings us to tip number three. You need to identify how much story actually exists. And this is an important point a case might be intriguing, but can you really do five or 8 or 10 episodes on just that one case? You know, are you going to be able to to explore enough facets that one audiences will want to come back and watch, especially if you’re doing a show where you’re hoping to give something out of it, like catch somebody. You need to be able to hook your audience in, because if they don’t stick around to watch, how are they going to help you, you know, potentially bring an end to the case, you know? And part and parcel of that is can you come up with an outline that makes your series feel unique and can also carry the case through all these episodes to make compelling TV? How are you going to sort of structure and arrange your episodes so that audiences will stick around in a network can have the luxury of doing so much time on just one case? Yes.
Joke: Some cases, you know, are great, but they they fall more in the, you know, a different case an hour type of crime show. You know, discovery ID has made, you know, an extremely valuable brand off of dojos. And now obviously they’re also developing these more deep dive crime series that last three, five, six, ten episodes. But it’s important when you walk in saying, okay, this is more than just an hour story to kind of understand what what it is. And and by the way, the good news is networks are open to varying degrees where normally they’re like, oh, we order, you know, 6 or 8 episodes at a time. And you’re like, well, listen, this only is three hours, but it’s a great three hours. People are willing to try those things. So I think it’s about being honest with yourself and the story as to how much space there is to work with and how much story. And and I think if it’s a part, present tense, present day investigation, that’s sometime harder to judge because you don’t know how long it’s going to take or but you kind of still have to understand. All right, well, my production period can’t run unlimited. So how many episodes can can I make with what I have today?
Biagio: So moving out to tip number four.
Joke: Maybe we should move on instead of move out.
Biagio: Did I say move out? Yeah, I’m moving out. Okay. Moving on to tip number four. What is your second hook and specifically what is your second hook for this true crime series we’ve talked in the past about your second hook. I’ll put a link to that in the show notes. Again, you’ll be able to find at it producing unscripted nine four. But the second hook is really important in true crime, especially in how it helps you identify bigger themes your story speaks to.
Joke: I think it’s it’s too easy to fall into like, oh, it’s a crime series. We’re just going to follow the crime. And, it’s very important to also, you know, we say this on every show, but to not forget that even in a crime jar, you have to figure out, you know, what’s your second hook? And really it’s like, what’s the second theme? So you know, your a storyline, your first theme is, is usually the case. What are the facts of the case. What happened? Guilt, innocent, whatever. But if you can tie it into a second hook, a bigger picture theme that makes it relevant to your audience, that’s when you know you you have a winner. So, for example, we talked about The Jinx before. Obviously, on the basic level, The Jinx is a show about, you know, exploring the case, exploring Robert Durst version, you know, is he guilty? Is he innocent? That’s your main story. But there is. There is, at least to us. It seemed like a bigger theme of, you know, rich people get away with murder, right? Is this really rich guy? Can he really get away with it? As the show progresses and his guilt seems more and more obvious than it becomes like, oh my, is he really going to get away with it? How society set up? How is his family reacting? How is how did money buy him this kind of getting away with it? So so it’s about finding other themes, right? Just as with serial, the podcasts, which kind of, you know, was part of this new wave that pushed with jinx and with making a murderer that pushed crime into pop culture. You know, it wasn’t just the facts of the case. It was, you know, is there an innocent man in jail, you know, and speaking to the bigger thing of that? So it allows your audience to connect and relate more to certain stories. Not that they’re rich in getting away with murder, but everyone could think of that. It can has an opinion on that is invested in that, you know, idea. And same thing with is an innocent man in jail. You’re like, oh, could that have been me? And and so it’s important and it will help you in your storytelling. It will help you in your pitch to identify that second theme.
Biagio: So moving on to tip number five, conceptualize an appropriate style. So I think all of us have seen a range of true crime series, you know, going from straight up reenactments where you have an actor, you know, yelling over the top of a loaded gun, looking wild eyed and ready to commit a crime on one end, you know, all the way to, you know, the jinx on the other, where you have more impressionistic, you know, cinematic style inspired by, you know, thin. Yeah. Thin blue line. You know, at the other end of the spectrum, that style works. It leaves a little bit more to the audience’s imagination. I think it tends to ground events a little bit more, and depending on the story you’re telling, it can make things just feel more emotionally resonant and point out, I think, the gravity of certain crimes. Now, every network is a little bit different though, and how they handle the reenactments as well.
Joke: Also, you know, just to open it up. I think this is true. You know, step five, you have to conceptualize your style, but it goes beyond reenactments, right? So your style, if this is a project that has a ton of evidence or archival, you know, that is going to influence your style. If this is a project where maybe, you know, like with serial, again, not to go back to a podcast, but, you know, those phone calls with him were an essential part of the style of that podcast. So if for some reason you have, you know, video of, of, you know, someone’s testimony or someone’s witness statements or you have someone admitting to something or you have, you know, home video of, you know, the serial killer before he became a serial killer, I don’t know, but you know what? You have your assets will also help determine your style.
Biagio: Sure. Especially if you’re doing a crime that’s set in history. Archival is so important, right? We’ve all seen like, the old, you know, eight millimeter, you know, film footage, you know, or the old news style footage from the 60s and the 70s. You know, if your crime is from that time period, how are you going to use that archival in a unique way to help tell your story? And by the way, that you make way maybe doing nothing to it, just putting it on screen because it comes with so much character already. So so there you have it. I think, you know, for us, we wanted to sit down and try and give you some actionable advice because a lot of people are out sort of coming up with ideas for true crime right now. And you’re not just pitching to us, pitching everywhere, pitching networks. And, you know, I think that these are things that are important to consider if you’re going to go out with a true crime series. But to recap are five points that we talked about today. Number one, know why. Who is benefiting? Why are you telling the story? Why the story now? Number two. What are you attaching? Have you worked hard to get access to the people and the police involved with the case? And are you already coming with all that or is it just an idea? If it’s just an idea, I didn’t go back and keep working. Number three identify how much story exists. Can you really do multiple episodes on just one case, and if so, what is your unique outline, your unique way of piecing together the series? So when you go out to pitch it, you can convince a network that the show is going to be compelling for all of those episodes. Number four, what is your second hook? What else are you exploring in The Jinx? It wasn’t just about guilt or innocence. To us, it was also about can a rich guy get away with murder? Does your story speak to a relevant time in history, shed light on an important social issue? Explore something that is relevant to the current news cycle. Those are important. Second, hooks to know and understand and be able to identify what yours is. And finally, five conceptualize an appropriate style. You need a style that’s going to work for the networks that you have in mind, and it’s also going to treat the subject matter with the gravity it deserves, and make sure that the point of your show isn’t getting lost in a style that may be a little bit too over the top.
Joke: There you have it. We made it through.
Biagio: We made it. We made it through again. I want to thank all of you who have been patient with us while we’ve been away. You know, we’ve always said since we started this podcast.
Joke: Sick, we’ve been working.
Biagio: We’ve had a lot of life stuff. And, you know, I think we’re coming up on four years of doing this podcast. We’ve managed to do it pretty consistently. We’re going to get back to doing it pretty consistently, because we’ve heard from so many of you who can’t find this information anywhere else. We’ve always wanted this to be a place where people who want to know about the industry and want to work in the industry and make the industry a better place can learn from. And so we’re going to continue doing that. But mainly we just want to say thank you to all of you who we’ve heard from, who’ve kept listening. We look forward to bring you a lot more great podcasts. You’re here starting in two weeks. Hopefully we’ll be back two weeks. Two weeks back to every two weeks, people. All right. Have a good one.
Unidentified Voice: Bye bye.
Biagio: Producing unscripted with.
Unidentified Voice: Joe can be Geo.
