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Announcer: Welcome to Producing Unscripted with Joke and Biagio.
Angry Man: Is this some kind of joke?
Joke: Biagio.
Biagio: Who did this episode? It’s episode 107 and we’re talking about pitching family based docu series, a special study of the Kardashians and what you can learn. Six must have traits of any family you pitch. How you can see the original pitch tape that actually sold. Keeping up With the Kardashians and I learn a new word. I have never heard the term momager. That is hilarious. Music courtesy Dave Pelman and music Dave. Com. Hey everybody. She is joke.
Joke: He’s Biagio.
Biagio: We’re married. We make unscripted film and television and want to help you do the same.
Joke: Hopefully by teaming up with us.
Biagio: All right, well, welcome to episode 107. And we’ve got what I think is going to be a really interesting episode for you today. Before we get too far into it, I do want to mention if you know about Real Screen Magazine, they just did a little story on the two of us. So if you’ve ever been interested in how we got started or why we love working with new producers and where we were new producers when we started, it’s all in there. I’ll put a link in the show notes. And speaking of which, today we’re talking about pitching family based docu series A Kardashian study.
Joke: Yeah, so obviously we’re always looking for kind of the new family docu series. You guys pitch a lot of them to us, which is great. We do think, though, that we can go into a little bit more detail as to what a good family based docu series needs, because a lot of times we get pitches where it’s like, hey, we’re like the Kardashians. And other than it being a family based doctor series, that’s kind of where it ends. So we thought it would be great to look at Keeping Up With the Kardashians and kind of study that show a little bit to really kind of show you that they have more than just their family.
Biagio: Yeah. And, you know, I mean, listen, it’s a super successful show, right? If debuted on me in 2007, this is what joke. Season 15.
Joke: Season 15, about to premiere August 5th. Yeah. So they’ve been going for a long time. I think it’s like 15 seasons in like maybe 11 or 12 years or something. So very successful show. For those of you who don’t know, it follows the Kardashian Jenner family with matriarch Kris Jenner kind of anchoring the show. And then obviously the very successful sisters Kim Kardashian, Khloe Kardashian, Kourtney Kardashian, Kendall Jenner, Kylie Jenner those are kind of the five main sisters. And then Rob Kardashian is another sibling, but he has been not quite so active on the show recently.
Biagio: So, you know, I think what’s going to be very helpful, you know, we’re going to talk about what makes the show and family unique by looking back at our sixth episode. Well, episode six, that was like five years ago.
Joke: It’s 101 episodes.
Biagio: Ago, 100, 101 episodes ago. We did a podcast six must have traits of reality TV characters and documentary subjects, and I think the advice in that absolutely still holds 100% true today. So we thought we’d look at the Kardashians through the lens of those six tips. And of course, I will link to that episode from the show notes. But of course you can find it by going to Producing Unscripted. Six. Back when I had to do because I knew someday we would break 100. All right, so why don’t we start with the first must have trait. They have to be unique.
Joke: So imagine back in time, you know, 11 years ago now, in 2007, what made this family unique was not only did they have a connection to Robert Kardashian, the lawyer who helped free OJ Simpson, right, who got an acquittal there, and Robert Kardashian had been in the news a lot. The blended family now also included then Bruce Jenner, now Caitlyn Jenner, who was known to the American public as kind of like an All-American athlete. So so it was a very unique, blended family of Kardashians kids. Jenner kids kind of led with the then Bruce, now Caitlyn and Kris Jenner kind of head. So. So it was a unique family in the fact that it wasn’t just mom dad on a couple of kids, right? It was like mom, stepdad and kids together like his hers ours type of stuff. So with obviously the connections to pop culture names and then, of course, let’s not forget, I think at this point Kim Kardashian sex tape had leaked. So it’s, you know, that also made it very unique because everyone was thinking about who is this girl like? This was Paris Hilton’s friend and now she has a sex tape. Like, what’s her family life like? So, you know, there was a very unique angle to this family.
Biagio: And before we get too much farther, because obviously a lot of you are pitching many different kinds of family shows, I don’t want anybody to mistakenly think that the only thing that makes a family unique is money or fame or success. We’ll get into that a little bit more later, but we are focusing on the Kardashians. But just keep in mind, we’re not saying the only types of family shows that work are with rich, famous celeb adjacent people.
Joke: No, because we can look even at like TLC where you have, you know, little people, big world. They’re an interesting family, right? They have a unique perspective. Even if you look at the Duck Dynasty family, their unique in their own way. So, you know, I think it’s really about finding or identifying if you if you have an interesting family that you’re pitching or you’re part of an interesting family, I think it’s really important to, to to focus on what makes you unique, what makes you stand apart from, you know, other families.
Biagio: Exactly. So moving on to point number two, you can’t just have good characters. You need story ideas as well.
Joke: I think what works really well here often is a business, right? So the Kardashians weren’t just a family, their business more so now than they were back then. But even back then, I mean, Kris Jenner is the manager of all managers, right? Not just with her kids, but even with Bruce now, Caitlyn getting lots of, you know, endorsements and, and kind of figuring out how to make money, what it was through clothing line or books or other things that they were setting up. So in the Kardashians, the business of being a Kardashian-Jenner absolutely drives a ton of story ideas.
Biagio: I don’t want to derail us, but. And I’m probably going to sound dumb saying this, but I have never heard the term momager. That is hilarious. So it’s basically combining mom and manager into one word. Yes. Okay, mama. All right, I like it. Momager.
Joke: Clearly I’m not a momager.
Biagio: No, no she’s not.
Joke: Kids are in school. Yeah. So I think it’s really important that the family has, like, that second unique aspect, right? Other than, like, hey, we’re all big fun characters. It’s like, what else is there in the world that, like, lends itself to story idea. So with the little people family, obviously the story ideas are, you know, little people living in a big world with the Duggars where it’s like, you know, we have 18 kids and counting or I don’t know how many numbers they’re up to now is the idea of raising this big family was kind of a unique second aspect. So again, what makes your family unique? And then what is kind of that story engine that that can keep driving? Stories for with the Kardashians now 15 seasons.
Biagio: Exactly. So moving on to a trait. Number three, it’s important that your characters are not in it for the money. Let us explain what we’re talking about.
Joke: So obviously with the Kardashian-Jenner family, the idea was again, Kris, the momager. You know, look, if we get more publicity will be our brand will mean more, and then we’ll grow our business. Right. So obviously it’s it’s money for them was was the end goal. Right. But at the time they were doing it, they didn’t need that show to live a comfortable life. So they weren’t like, okay, let’s do a show because we all want to make money right now. Sure. In October 2017, they end up signing a $150 million deal. But again, that’s 2017. That was not 2007 when they first signed on. The audience kind of feels it when it’s like, oh, these people are doing all of this just for the camera, just so they can make money. So it’s important that the drama and the relationships and the connections that are there are real. So that, you know, you making money is is a secondary kind of gravy to this entire experience. Right. But the stories and the connections are real. So say what you will about the Kardashians. These sisters are like right or die. They love each other. They hate each other. They’re very open about that stuff. And so you feel like, yeah, of course they’re doing a lot of this stuff so they can build their brand and make more money. At the end of the day, if the show stopped tomorrow, those relationships as we see them on television would continue. And that that’s what feels real and authentic about it for the audience. So it’s important as you, as you think about these families, that they are this open and wanting to share this stuff, not just to make a book that this is just who they are.
Biagio: Yeah. And, you know, listen, we always tell people in success there will be money, right? And the fact is, you’re on television every week. If you’re a smart person, even if the network isn’t paying you a lot of money, you will find a way to turn that exposure into cash. And that’s a whole nother podcast. But that is a possibility in success. You got to be success before you make the big bucks. All right, moving on to trait number four. The family needs to fit on the TV landscape. So important.
Joke: So this is one that if you’re starting out might be kind of difficult to maybe figure out on your own. But if you watch television and you’re like, okay, where does our family fit? Obviously the Kardashians, because of their predominantly female cast and, you know, their pop culture connections, where it was Kim’s tape or the Jenner’s Olympic history or the Robert Kardashian OJ pop culture connection. There was a lot of pop culture stuff happening with this family, so we made like, the perfect fit, right? TLC is always looking for these very extraordinary families doing ordinary things, hence the Little People series. Or if you’re a family whose living off the grid and you have no electricity or plumbing, maybe that’s a discovery type show family, or with the the Duck Dynasty family that they’re much fit the kind of A and E brand there was, there was a bit of luxury, but these people were still getting around the table every Sunday as a family, you know, eating the food that they just want and shot that day. So it’s important to figure out kind of where you fit in the TV landscape. Obviously, some of the the streaming platforms like the Netflix and Amazon are changing a little bit of that. They’re becoming more open and less niche, but it’s still important when pitching to them that they understand, kind of like, which part of the audience are we going after with this show? So if you know that, that will also help you kind of perfect your pitch in terms of even the words and the adjectives you use, try and match the kind of messaging that those networks send out when pitching your family.
Biagio: Exactly. All right, moving on to trait number five. Your family needs to have an extraordinary perspective.
Joke: So we talked about this a little bit already throughout. But but it’s not just the family itself needs to be unique but they need to have like a very interesting perspective. So with the Kardashians, it very much was like at the time that they launched, they were celeb adjacent, right? They weren’t quite like big name celebrities on their own. You know, you probably put them on the D-list or something. And they had been flirted with the celebrity world and hanging out with celebrities in terms of like, Kim being Paris’s assistant. But they weren’t what the world or America considered as celebrities yet. So that was an interesting perspective for an audience to kind of see that wish fulfillment, still relatable characters who are dabbling in that celebrity world. But again, your unique perspective can be.
Biagio: The exact opposite. You’re living off of no money in the middle of nowhere, and you know you’ve given up every single trapping of modern life, or you’re a family in a really unique career that most people would never think of. That happens to fit on one of the television networks that exist today.
Joke: Yeah. So I think it’s important to kind of understand the family’s point of view, the family’s perspective on the world, on life, on society, on things that you would see in these kinds of shows. I think it’s important to to learn what that extraordinary perspective is that they can bring to an audience.
Biagio: And that moves us on to our last point. Trait number six. No self-censoring, a big one.
Joke: The self-censoring is kind of a door thing because it’s so important to every character on television. I think one of the great things about the Kardashians is they’ve always had that they still have, that. They’re not afraid to say what’s on their mind, and they always get them make up, and that’s part of the storylines. But you do feel that there’s a relatable there between you and your family, perhaps watching them, which is what makes them, again, relatable. What the Kardashians have gotten really good at over the years, in terms of the self-censoring, is that they’ve almost drained themselves to save stuff for the camera, right? They they know, oh, if I say this is going to get a rise out of my sister. So they just wait to have that conversation until the cameras come along. And, you know, truth be told, from a production standpoint, it probably talked to producers about that and said, you know, Wednesday at 10:00, you know, so some of that is absolutely produced. But it’s knowing that, again, in success, in getting used to this kind of world, your characters will know, okay, this is really how I need to be open and honest and not self-censor when I try to get off my chest what I need to get off.
Biagio: All right, so that brings us to the end of our six traits. Again, please look back at episode six for a more in-depth exploration of these traits. But this is how they relate specifically to pitching a family show. Whether you’re the family or you’re the producer pitching the family. Now, speaking of pitching, one really interesting thing that joke told me today that I didn’t know is you can actually see the original pitch tape that sold the Kardashians.
Joke: Yeah, it’s super cool. When they did a ten year anniversary special and the whole show was pretty fun. Ryan Seacrest hosts it. We’ll put the link to it in the show notes. But during that ten year anniversary special, they actually showed the original sizzle reel that sold Keeping Up With the Kardashians. It’s awesome. Not only is it like Time Capsule, well, none of these women look the same anymore, but it’s also you get a sense of these things. You get a sense that their unique, that they’re really good characters, that their story ideas developing, that these people aren’t in it for the money, they’re not acting. They really are. This way, you can see how it fits on the e.tv landscape. You can see why they bought it and why they rushed it through and said, okay, let’s get this show going. And and you get that they’re definitely not self-censoring and that they have an extraordinary perspective. So it’s awesome that we’re able to see this a lot of times. Sizzle reel set sold a show, never really make it out to the public. So this was really exciting for us to see. And I think it’ll really help you guys, as you’re putting together kind of tape on the family that you might think is a good TV show, as to the kind of stuff that really helped make it pop.
Biagio: So there you go. A study in the Kardashians. And I hope this was as informative for you as I think it could be. Again, we get pitched a lot of family shows, and one of the most common things people say is we’re like the Kardashians. But beyond the fact that they’re a family. It’s not a great comparison.
Unidentified Voice: And by the way.
Joke: We don’t need another Kardashians, right? Like that’s the thing. Like the Kardashians have that market covered. There’s so many great families out there that can be the next Kardashians, right? That could be like the next great family docu series. So it’s important to just kind of strip it back and go, okay, what made the Kardashians so successful in terms of the show, in terms of the storytelling? And we do think that if you focus on these six traits that we just talked about and you figure out what those are for your family, that’ll help move the pitch up, you know that that’ll help elevate your pitch to a point where people might say, oh, I do see how that family could work in this own show.
Biagio: So there you go. So thank you so much for tuning in. We’ll be back next month with a new episode. In the meantime, as always, if you’d like to learn how to pitch your own concepts to me and Joe, you can head over the Producing Unscripted. Sign up for the newsletter and learn all about it. Just check out the about page there. And and we really break it down what’s real and what’s not. And we try to be very honest about how we team up with people and how the business works. And again, if you decide you don’t want to work with the two of us, all the information on the site is free. You can use it however you want.
Announcer: Enjoy. It’s our way of giving back to the unscripted community. So until next time, have a great month! Bye bye. Producing Unscripted with Joke and Biagio.
