Puzzling Together Story with Jon Collins

Biagio: Hey everybody, she’s Joke.

Joke: He’s Biagio.

Biagio: We’re married, we make unscripted film and television and want to help you do the same.

Joke: Hopefully by teaming up with us.

Biagio: Well, I am geeking out and so excited to have a truly exceptional guest today. This is going to be awesome.

Joke: Jon Collins is here today. He’s been working in reality television for nearly 20 years. He started as a tape logger for the first season of HBO’s Project Greenlight, which was awesome. Yes. His credits include The Bachelor, Bachelorette, Project Runway, House Hunters, just to name a few. And he’s worked on shows at MTV, TLC, E, HGTV, the list goes on and on. John, welcome.

Jon Collins: Thank you guys. Wow, what an intro.

Biagio: And I gotta tell you, I think we, like a lot of people, you know, we discovered you. We discovered you. I sound like an agent on streaming. You’ll be a star, kid. We think you’re a star.

Joke: We discovered him at the same time as most of the

Biagio: world did. Which was, you write a blog where essentially you take beloved movies and give them a round of reality TV network notes. Yep. Which is brilliant, as people will come to understand over the course of this podcast. The first one I saw, I think, was if La La Land got a round of reality TV network notes.

Joke: That’s the one that went viral, right? Mm-hmm.

Jon Collins: That one went viral. I had a couple other ones go viral a bit beforehand, but that went the most viral. People really

Biagio: responded to what you’re doing. So I’m guessing that comes from some personal experience.

Jon Collins: Just a little. No, because I’ve been working, I’ve worked mostly in post. I’ve been, like you said, I’ve been doing this for, oh God, like almost 20 years now.

Biagio: Now, for those who are brand new to the industry, the notes process, you know, you don’t just edit your show and hand it off and say, hey, I’m done. You know, the notes process is a big conversation, you know, initially with your production company and then the network about what they want the show to be. And while not all network executives give crazy notes, many do.

Jon Collins: So yeah, so it’s all from history.

Biagio: And

Jon Collins: as I’m writing these, I always try to channel, you know, I try like, okay, how can I shut down part of my brain and then go ahead and just like go ahead and write some of these notes, you know? And part of me gets it because like, you know, these executives are coming, they’re in a risk adverse sort of business. So they’re trying to get as many people to watch their stuff as possible. Like on a couple of shows I’ve worked on, I’ve been told specifically like, this is a second screen show, which means that the audience is on their phone or on their tablet or on their computer. And they’re listening more than they’re watching. So we have to like, bites then have to be, the interview bites then have to be very kind of spelled out. The see and say sort of thing. The see and say bite is that you see someone walk into a room and then they cut to interview saying, as I walked into the room, I, ba-da-ba-da-da-da-da-da, right? Which, you know, you watch a scripted television, you know, Olivia Pope doesn’t walk into a room on Scandal and say, I’m walking into the room right now. And I need to know what’s going on. She just walks into the room and says, I need to know what’s going on. Like we get the idea of what her mindset is because we can actually watch her actually just do it in scene. We don’t have to have her having an interview bite to explain what she’s doing. We actually see her doing it, you know? Do you

Joke: think it comes from when maybe people are like, well, if they pop in halfway through the episode, we got to catch them up? And do you think some of it comes from there?

Jon Collins: Some of it does come from there because I’ve actually gotten that note before. Well, what if someone turns in the episode halfway through? I’m like, okay, let’s break that down for just a second. More and more people are cord cutting. So more and more people are watching their stuff through Hulu or Netflix or Amazon. So therefore, they’re clicking through the show, scrolling through. What am I going to watch tonight? Oh, boom, I’ll watch Jessica Jones. Click, right? And it doesn’t start halfway through. They’re trying to figure out what happened. No, they’re starting from the very beginning. Also, most television is not Game of Thrones, but you can just, you know, you can turn it on halfway through an episode. You can probably can figure out, you know what I mean?

Joke: Well, I agree. Yeah. Because for me, it’s like Law & Order has those tent poles, right? So even if you’re like halfway, you click in, you know, you turn on your television, you’re halfway through at Law & Order. Right. You don’t need to have seen the first half to kind of still enjoy the second half of

Biagio: it. Yeah.

Joke: You know what I mean? You kind of know, oh, okay, they’re starting to talk to a prosecutor, so I know I’m already in the second half of the show. You

Biagio: can miss the law and understand the order. Exactly.

Joke: Yeah, I think it’s one of those things where if you’ve been traumatized by the process, you can, you know, the blog is like a great form of, you know, laugh therapy. The catharsis. The catharsis. Yeah. I’m not alone. I’m not alone. It’s not just me, okay? So that’s great.

Jon Collins: I

Joke: think for someone who hasn’t gone through the process, there’s still a lot of funny there, but it might not be as visceral. Right. You know, it won’t be PTSD-like, you know. It’s like, ah.

Jon Collins: The biggest, the best response I always get is like, oh my God, I was cringing my way through reading this. Or, oh my gosh, I was getting so angry and I was laughing. I’m like, yeah, yeah, that’s exactly it.

Biagio: Yeah.

Jon Collins: That’s exactly it. It kind of, that’s one of the reasons why I always do like a movie that’s beloved as opposed to a movie that people hate is because it’s the idea of here’s something we all like and here’s how they would make it worse. Yeah,

Joke: I think it’s also one of those things where, you know, I don’t want to come across like we’re whining about notes. Like television is a collaborative process. Notes can and should make the show better. It’s always nice to get a fresh eye on things. Oh, completely. Because, you know, we get, you know, hundreds of hours of footage and you’re like trying to craft a story from that. Makes sense to me, but, you know, a lot of times sometimes we fill in information that we know because we saw the raw and maybe isn’t clear in the show. So those of our listeners who aren’t quite used to the process, because you’ve worked in the business for so long, walk us back a little bit and start from the beginning. So day one of post, you’re getting all these tapes delivered or cards or whatever media you now get from the field. What’s your process like in post?

Jon Collins: So basically everything gets, the footage gets ingested into a big editing system and there’s a big server. And then you have like a little editing station at your desk. And then we do, because I have a story producer background. That’s where I come from. And so basically you take the footage and you go through it and you’re like, okay. And you usually have like something from the fields and like, okay, here’s what we thought we were going to shoot. Here’s like the beach, the beef that we hit. And then you watch it and you’re like, okay, how can I turn this and make it into a TV show? I always like my go-to analogy is someone hands you a big bag of broken glass and asks you to make a mosaic. Right? And so you just try to make, you take that footage and you watch it down and you start like selecting the footage, the bits of footage that you want. And you start arranging them into a rough order, which is called a string out. And so that string out then is like roughly one and a half to two times longer than what the show actually will be. And then that goes to an editor and then you and the editor work together to turn it into television.

Biagio: Right.

Jon Collins: And so as a story producer on this and that’s the creative, it’s almost like writing. It is writing, but you’re using an Avid. That’s why I say it’s like making a mosaic as opposed to like, you know.

Biagio: Yeah.

Jon Collins: It’s puzzling. It’s a puzzle. It’s kind of like it’s a big creative puzzle.

Biagio: It’s

Jon Collins: like how can I fit all these pieces together and paint this picture or tell this story?

Joke: Like for Caged, which we did, which was 10 one hours, we ended up shooting 600 scenes. I mean, obviously 600 scenes didn’t end up in the show. But I think that’s also where, you know, do you like the cards on the wall?

Jon Collins: Oh, my God. Yes.

Joke: Yeah.

Jon Collins: OK. So those of you don’t know, pretty much what you’ll do is you’ll have a big wall and you’ll put up a card for each episode. And you’ll break down by acts. Right. And then you’ll have a card on each scene, scene on each card, basically like summarizing what the scene is. And then so you can have on this whole wall so you can have the entire season in front of you. Now, I do a lot of docuseries and I’m actually doing currently doing a new one for E right now. And so I actually built the story wall. Right. So you basically have all these scenes up. So then you can start playing around with the order because you will always move stuff around. And when it comes to a docuseries as opposed to like a makeover show or a competition show is that a makeover and competition show, it’s a very set structure as to what happens in each act. Like if it’s like Project Runway, you know, you get the introduction of the challenge at the beginning. They go to mood and then they start sewing. But by the end of act four, they’re done sewing. But then act five starts and that’s the presentation. So you have that structure. When you’re doing like a docuseries, there is no structure.

Biagio: So

Jon Collins: any story can go anywhere. So everything goes everywhere. Right. So you need this big wall so you can say, OK, well, maybe this storyline with Molly actually, instead of being in episode one, works better in episode five. Or we move this scene here so you can start moving stuff around, you know, and you have to especially when you’re doing a first season show. No one’s done the show before. So you’re all figuring it out together. You know what I mean? It’s all like you’re all like you’re all like in a massive, like darkened warehouse. You’re going to find where the story is and where the show is. And then you eventually get there probably by almost by the time of like your last episode airs. Right. Probably around the OK. Here’s what the show is. Right. And so and so, yeah, so you have to have it. You kind of have to just roll with the punches at this point.

Joke: I think it’s my favorite part. Yeah. It’s just I love sitting in front of the wall. I love looking at it. I love going. Is that really the best order? And again, you know, it’s all real. It’s just all that stuff really happened. And it’s just how do we best show you how it happens? Exactly. You know, especially in a docu-stope where you’re dealing with, you know, multiple characters. They don’t all have storylines that are happening together. And, you know, it might be like, oh, this this cute thing that happened over here with this character. Like it doesn’t really fit in this episode. And we can keep it for a later episode because it’s kind of it didn’t matter what time of the six months we were shooting it happened in.

Jon Collins: Right.

Joke: You know, so we can kind of play with that stuff. But even for a documentary series we just did for CNN, you know, you have to puzzle how are you going to get this much information to an audience in an understandable way.

Biagio: Right. Yeah. I mean, so now you’re dealing with mounds and mounds of footage as if that’s not enough pressure. Let’s talk a little bit about the actual notes process because

Jon Collins: you’re

Biagio: pulling together a cut. First, you’re getting, you know, notes from the EP or the company owners. And then after that, it goes out to network. You get the network notes.

Jon Collins: Typically, it’s best if everyone in-house at the company is on the same page. Like here’s this type of show we’re doing. Right. And then and so then it’s a united front when you’re dealing with the network. Right. It’s worse when you’re like inside when you’re working on a show. And I’ve worked on several shows where like the showrunner has one idea, but the co-EP has another idea. For one and then the other one sees it and then that one freaks out and then has you undo everything and then thinks you’re not kind of getting the show. But no, I was just doing notes from what the co-EP wanted me to do. You know, so this is I am always at the point like I like I love to make fun of the notes. But what I’m actually doing notes from because you get notes from multiple sources. I did this one show for style where the network gave notes. The production, the parent company of the production company gave notes. And then two internal EPs also gave notes. And I had to compile all of them together into one document. Right. And so therefore and then the showrunner would go through and say, do this, don’t do this, don’t do that. Don’t do that. And that’s the thing. We’re all trying to figure out what the right is. And until it airs and we figure out that’s what right is. How

Joke: do you get through to the emotional and the psychological toll of it?

Jon Collins: Yeah. How

Joke: do you

Jon Collins: handle

Joke: that?

Jon Collins: Well, I maybe I’ve been doing this a while, kids. I mean, it’s at first I would get. But that’s the thing. It’s because the whole thing is a collaborative process. Like when you when you when you’re crafting a show, you have as a story producer or whatever, like you have other people you’re dealing with. First of all, you’re dealing with your editor. Right. And your editor has opinions and he or she has, you know, they’re part of the process, too. Operating with the person who’s above you. There are layers. Right. And so after a while, it’s like you just kind of have to just run with it. It’s a Zen process. So I do the best that I can. And then I go home. You know, I mean, I love what I do. I really do. I absolutely love my job. I love my career. I this is where I know I’m mean to be. But I also I know I can see it for what it is. You know, I mean, there are days I get really frustrated and there are days if I will get frustrated if I’m I feel like I’m not being heard. If I’m not being part of the process, if I’m just being like, just be a string out monkey or just go get a bite. Then after I’m like, well, OK, then why am I here?

Biagio: Right. You

Jon Collins: know, but if I’m part if I at least I’m being listened to, at least if I say, hey, what about trying this? And someone’s been kind of like, well, no, because we’re trying that. Then like, OK, I understand it.

Joke: This is the same with our relationship with the network. I think it’s just being heard. Right. It’s like, OK, we believe it should be X, Y and Z. Right. If you really want A, B and C instead, then, OK, you’re the client. We will give you the best A, B and C possible. Right. One of the things that’s really been popping up the last few years is now executives want you to respond on paper to every note. Right. The notes on notes. Yeah.

Jon Collins: Oh, yeah. Oh, there’s an art. There’s an art form to the notes on notes process. It is the because typically if no one has seen what an actual notes pass looks like, it’s similar to what my blog is, except there’s like a time code on it. And so then a notes response is usually you copy that, put it into a new document and then right under it, usually it’s like bold and in red to explain what it is. And it has to be the most benign, bland, vanilla response because otherwise it can’t be the because you really want to roll your eyes and put a bunch of like a rolling eyes emojis and like devil emojis. No, it is more like you say like, please edit this or please put a new bite in. And I usually put in done or done or yes or addressed or if something we don’t have, then it’s the I unfortunately I’m sorry, we don’t have what you were looking for. But we did try X. We did try this. We did try that.

Joke: Yeah, it’s a whole process. Like how do you manage that with editors and in terms of keeping everyone’s sanity?

Jon Collins: Well, at some point, you know, we’re talking about the process of like, you know, when I first get the footage, I cut it down, I work with the editor. And then at some point, then once the note process starts, once that edit process starts, your job as the story producer is is to maintain the care and feeding of your editor. Right. It’s to kind of like make sure that they that he or she is working well and that they’re giving everything they need. And you’re also you’re making sure that you’re guiding them through the story. And it is like pointing those out. It’s like, OK, no, this is stupid. But this is something that none of us caught, that none of us realize that it actually can make things a lot richer if we implement this. I

Joke: do think it’s important. And at least it’s what I tell myself is it’s not these executives set out to ruin the show.

Jon Collins: No.

Joke: Very rarely is there someone who’s like, ha ha, I’m going to take this show on purpose. You know what I mean? So so everyone’s coming from the right place.

Jon Collins: Yeah, they’re not

Joke: they’re

Jon Collins: not in their offices twirling their mustaches. How

Joke: can I screw over

Jon Collins: this production

Joke: company

Jon Collins: today? No, no, no. Of course not.

Joke: So it is all about communication and keeping cool and calm and level headed and figuring out, OK, and that’s from both sides. Yeah. The producers need to stay calm and collected and so do the executives.

Jon Collins: Because when it comes down to it, it’s a TV show.

Joke: Yeah.

Jon Collins: That’s that. That’s another thing, too. A friend of mine had a great quote. It’s like we’re curing boredom, not cancer.

Biagio: Yeah,

Joke: that

Biagio: is a good.

Jon Collins: Yeah. You know what I mean? Because that’s that’s me, too. Ultimately, so why I’m also kind of chill about this. Like, look, there’s no body on a table. We’re not doing heart surgery. We’re not saving starving children in Rwanda. We’re doing a TV show, usually for basic cable. So let’s just like cool our jets here and we’ll we’ll take care of this.

Joke: Sometimes ridiculous how much emotion is involved when we’re just curing boredom.

Jon Collins: Because a lot of times, sometimes the hours can be long and tedious. And so therefore, like you’re investing a lot of your time and effort into this. And when someone is not getting it, it’s frustrating.

Joke: I’m going to ask you a question about the future. Yes. We can all see into the future. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly. But I think a lot of what’s driving these executives to sometimes like overthink and overnote and all that stuff is, you know, it’s a lot of CYA, right? Like, oh,

Jon Collins: my God. Yes.

Joke: They’re having a lot of meetings and they’re trying to think what their boss is going to say or this. Or they were in a meeting that morning and marketing said something about this or international said something about that. And so now they’re like, how does that relate to this show? And it might not at all. And so in an industry that is becoming more and more data driven through the Netflixes and the Amazon and the Hulus, we’re like, we know at two minutes and 32 seconds. You know, like how are we going to keep like the joy of story alive when so much I feel like of the feedback coming back is it’s just numbers.

Jon Collins: It’s like hyper, hyper analytical. Yeah. I think it’s finding fun stories to tell. I think it’s finding fun characters to get invested in. I think also, too, a lot of scripted now is very – the characters and the stories they’re telling are very dark. It’s very – lots of antiheroes like everywhere throughout scripted. I think a way of counterbalancing that in unscripted is to tell more positive stories and tell more positive things. And like, you know, people overcoming things. Like the true crime stuff you guys are doing, right? Yeah. Dark subjects. But, you know, the justice comes in at the end, right? Yeah. So I think if we put the investment on that sort of thing and also really trusting more of what the audience can do and trusting more that the audience is there with us. They want to be there with us on the ride, right? So I think if we focus more on that sort of joy of it and the joy of actually telling the stories, you know, I think that will help ease the tension of having to hit all these little markers here and there.

Joke: Less and less shows are given, especially in reality, a second season.

Jon Collins: Yes.

Joke: And, you know, Project Runway first season was all right, but it wasn’t what it became. Right. You know, like they gave that show another shot. Like there’s a lot of shows that like that built over time.

Biagio: It

Joke: was canceled.

Biagio: Right. You know? And it wasn’t because it had great ratings that it stayed on the air. Right. It was because they believed in the show. It was a good show. So it kills me when good shows don’t come back

Jon Collins: because

Biagio: they weren’t given a time to grow.

Jon Collins: It’s unfortunate, but there’s so many venues now to do television. You have broadcast. You have basic cable. You have all the streaming channels. You know what I mean? I mean, Apple and Facebook are doing TV shows now. You know? I’ll be halfway surprised if like, you know, Con Edison is going to start delivering content.

Joke: But you know what’s interesting about like one of the Facebook shows is it wasn’t doing so well. And they just kept doing it and kept doing it and then picked it up for a second season. And now it’s doing a lot better.

Biagio: Right. But

Joke: it was very interesting to me that their data was not very good. I mean,

Biagio: their data was public. You could see how many people were watching the show. It was like, here’s how many viewers there are.

Jon Collins: Right.

Joke: This is how many active people are watching this right now. And you’re like, that’s 900.

Biagio: That’s

Jon Collins: 900 people.

Joke: Yeah. Like legit. Yeah. Right. But

Biagio: good for them for then sticking with it and saying like, no, we believe in this show. You know, regardless of what you think of the show, they believed in it. They put it on and now it’s doing better. I just wish more networks would sort of do that.

Jon Collins: Yeah. Oh, same. Same. Absolutely.

Biagio: Well, you know, for our listeners, like I said, a lot of our listeners are new to the industry or trying to break into the industry. And, you know, a lot of them have great story chops and are thinking that, you know, post-story and unsupportable television could be a career path for them. What’s your number one piece of advice for someone looking for a post-production story career, both for success and survival?

Jon Collins: Both would be learn how to listen. Listening. Listening. You are not always going to be right. You know, the job has its challenges. Like, obviously, if you’re new to this, you’re probably going to start as an AP, right? As a story AP, a story associate producer. So you’re going to be doing like some string outs, some bite pulls and all that sort of thing. Be on time. Do your job. Do it with a smile on your face and listen and be very proactive. Like if you want to help out, help out. Volunteer. It’s like, hey, can I pull that for you? Hey, can I learn about this? Hey, what do you think about that? Ask questions. Be creative. Be hungry. You know? And to survive is really just work on a variety of TV shows. One thing that you love to, you know, as a story producer or a person with a story background, like you tend to like, when you’re looking for a new job, the job postings will frequently say like, oh, must have food show experience. Must have competition show experience. Must have docu-soap experience. The thing is, the fundamentals of storytelling is the same for everything. Right. But there are some shows that need the specific knowledge of like, do you know about food? Do you know like a difference between a chiffonade and a mise en place? If when it comes to a fashion show, do you know the difference between an A-line dress and an empire waist? Do you know what I mean? It’s beneficial to help. I mean, stuff that you could probably Google or Wiki or whatever. But working on a variety of those type of shows will give you a base that you, therefore, then you can really have a better career.

Joke: One of the things that most people, I think, especially when they’re starting out, like, maybe don’t understand, is like, be creative because you could find the answer. Like, I think a lot of times when we’re like, wouldn’t it be great if someone said X, Y, Z? Right? Like, sorry, I looked everywhere. They don’t say X, Y, Z. Okay, but RSD is really close and it’s even funnier if we play it the right way. Right. You hook up with options.

Jon Collins: Yeah, or I didn’t get X,

Joke: Y,

Jon Collins: Z, but I got Z, B, Q.

Joke: Right.

Jon Collins: You know, oh, okay. I’ve had some APs who were like that, who were just like, well, I didn’t find it. Like, can you find something else? Can you give me some options? And the other ones who I liked and who I would, like, recommend for promotional, they are the ones who would be like, I found Z, B, Q. I also found R1216, right? Like, oh, okay, great. Like, someone who’s like, they’re eager, they’re like, hey, John, I thought about this for this team. What do you think? Okay, great. You know, people who are interested and are willing to work and willing to, like, I’ll put my nose to the grindstone and I’ll just do it. Yeah. You know, that’s the people who I like to work with. Yeah.

Biagio: Well, awesome. Well, thank you so much. This has been, like, amazing. So much good advice. We’re just excited to meet you because we share your pain. I mean, you know, I obviously… And our joys. And our

Jon Collins: joys. And our joys. It’s like my professional website and those are the blog section. And so that’s where all that… That’s where you can find the

Biagio: movies with amazing reality TV network notes. And you’re also doing the Notes, Notes, Notes podcast.

Jon Collins: Yes. Which is

Biagio: very funny, by the way. It’s sort of a sketch comedy version of your blog. Yeah. And very well acted, too.

Jon Collins: Oh, thank you. I’m actually a graduate of Second City and from Chicago. It shows. So, yeah. So,

Biagio: I

Jon Collins: have a comedy background. So, basically, for those of you who haven’t heard it, I play the network executive. And then I have different people take turns playing the showrunner, the quote-unquote showrunner of a different famous movie.

Biagio: That is fantastic.

Jon Collins: So, yeah. Yeah.

Biagio: It’s really funny. I listened to one the other day at Writers of the Lost Ark, which is one of my favorite movies ever. And I was just laughing the whole

Jon Collins: time. So, it’s really…

Biagio: I’m still laughing about the La La Land one.

Jon Collins: Oh, thank you.

Biagio: I

Jon Collins: mean, like, literally, I

Biagio: probably… You’re going to laugh. I probably think of that several times a week.

Jon Collins: Oh, my God. Thank you. Because

Biagio: I thought it was so great. And then your notes were so devastatingly awesome about, like, what it would look like if someone really didn’t get it. Anything else that you want to tell us about or plug today?

Jon Collins: No. Just, you know, follow me on Twitter. G’s John, J-E-Z-J-O-N. My website’s gsjohn.com, J-E-Z-J-O-N.com. And then Notes, Notes, Notes is everywhere where you can find podcasts. I put them out usually a couple times, like, you know, once every couple weeks and everything. So, yeah.

Biagio: That’s great. Well, yeah, keep doing them, man. They are like candy for us. And, you know, I try to be on Twitter often, but I love to share your things whenever they come up. So don’t ever be afraid to hit us up and ask us to retweet it, because I always think it’s fantastic.

Jon Collins: You got it. No problem. All

Biagio: right. Awesome. Well, thank you so much.

Jon Collins: Thank you, guys. Woo-hoo!

Announcer: Producing Unscripted with Joke and Biagio.