How to Cast Reality TV with Top Casting Director Dana Golder

Biagio: Hey, everybody. She’s joke. He’s Biagio. We’re married. We make unscripted film and television and want to help you do the same.

Joke: Hopefully by teaming up with us.

Biagio: All right, well, we’re sitting here across from Dana Golder, who is trying so hard not to laugh at me right now. We go way back with Dana Dana of DLT casting. She’s one of the top casting directors in all of reality television. I mean, any big show you’ve ever heard of? She’s probably worked on at some point, from The Biggest Loser to Beauty in the geek, Amazing Race. Thank you. Yeah, fill in the gaps for me, Dana. Family game night. Family game night. Right? Right, right.

Dana Golder: Worried about the audio and that it’s. That can.

Biagio: Be okay. It is kind of jingling. You know.

Dana Golder: A necklace right now. And I’m always, always on top of the audio.

Biagio: Thank you. One shot. Thank you. Dana, for for also producing this podcast as well as being the cast member on it. Cast. Oh. Casting director. Goddess. So we’re so excited to have you here today, because we always get questions from people about casting.

Dana Golder: Gone through her whole, like, credit list, though, like, let’s not forget Scream Queens. She found our top scream Queens who are now working actresses in this business. Hallelujah.

Biagio: Yeah, yeah. The lead on the Fox show, Rosewood. Rosewood who goes.

Dana Golder: By Lee Ortiz.

Biagio: Yeah. Jane only Ortiz joined with Morris Chestnut. Yeah. She was she was a Dana’s discovery.

Dana Golder: Out with like Tay Diggs I think. Was she I think he was like a love interest for her. And I was like what? I was talking about that at real screen. I will never forget the second I saw her walk into the room and it was just like, you’re done. It was just a light bulb moment of like, oh my God, I’m taking you on a plane back to Los Angeles and you’re going to be famous. You’re going to be the next J.Lo. You’re going to be the next something. You’re just like, thank you.

Biagio: Oh my God. And hilariously enough, she lost Scream Queens. She came in second. But it did not stop her from ascending in Hollywood. So clearly you saw something in her. And I think that’s what you’re I mean, that’s why you’re so awesome. You’re so good at spotting things in regular, everyday people that a lot of other people miss. That’s why you’re so good at finding people for all kinds of unscripted television shows. So I know joke has some specific questions. Yeah.

Dana Golder: So we kind of we get a lot of questions about how do I know someone’s right for a reality television, right. So we’ve talked a lot on this podcast about the different kinds of shows. So obviously if you’re casting for Biggest Loser, that’s different than casting for a docu series or anything else. But talk a little bit about, you know, what’s your process? How do you know somebody is worth like pitching up to network and casting on a show? My biggest thing is I want. Someone who never knew a TV show was coming, so they’re not actively applying. They’re not out there, you know, sending me tons of emails. They are out there living their life, running their family business with the cameras were on them or not. We that life would be happening. So that’s really up to me as a casting director, which, you know, the title sort of changes a little bit because you have to really be a producer and dive in and see what those subcultures are, see what those trends are, wherever it is or who that big personality is and always be casting. So I’m casting wherever I go. I cast at my child’s school. I put them in my little back pocket or in my brain, and I think, you know, when something comes up, I’m going to use them for a show.

Biagio: That’s a great point. And you also said something, I think that’s so important that a lot of people don’t get who are like, oh my God, I’m so crazy. Yeah, I should have a reality show about me, you know, never want them. Yeah, yeah, that’s.

Dana Golder: Like the number one. And I will never put you on a TV show ever. If you come up and ask me.

Biagio: It’s because number one, networks want people that would be doing whatever it is they’re doing in some form. If it’s a competition show, you know, if it’s runway, they better be out. You know, being real designers, if it’s like a documentary series about small business owners, they better be a real small business owner. They should be worried about that, not about being on television. Right.

Dana Golder: The biggest thing that I hear is I’m going to bring you ratings. I’m going to bring you ratings. Duck dynasty did not go into that negotiation thinking I’m going to bring ratings. They’re like, well, this is what we do for a living. Come along and bring a camera. And then what? The rest of what happened was magic. So okay, so you have for the for the people out there who think that they’re.

Joke: Good television or who are told, oh my God, you should have cameras follow you, you’re great TV. So what do you say to them? Like, okay, just go back to living your life. We’ll find you if we need to. Or is it like, hey, here I am, take it or leave it. I’m just going to go back to my life like, are they are you saying there’s no place for them?

Dana Golder: No. The first thing that I would do is I vet them. So you want to hear all about their life here? Everything that they do. You know, a lot of times also people will talk a lot about their backstory. Well, this happened to me. This happened to me. This happened to me. Well, that’s important what’s happening right now. So I get a big old conversation with them on the phone about where they’re at in their life. And then I want to see a little bit of tape. So I’ll either Skype with them, ask them to shoot a little bit on their own. I think you remember a while back we all worked on something. It was a hair salon where you know, this, this person was really adamant that you don’t understand. You know, my family doesn’t accept me and there’s lots of drama, but they never wanted to show that. They never would talk about it on camera. But behind the scenes, I promise you, with Thanksgiving, that’s where it is. Well, then there’s no show. If that’s not what we can see and it it can’t be conveyed, and I can’t find that out for myself, by me, an outsider talking to them, then it’ll never.

Biagio: Happen, right. So a couple important points about what you just said that I want to hit at number one. I know we’re saying, oh, if you think, oh my God, I’d be the best TV show ever. TV is probably not for you. Now here’s the thing. We get pitches from two kinds of people because a lot of people will pitch through our podcast, through our portal, you know, and it’s either producers who are pitching us an idea or people who think they should have their own show. Now, if you are really good at what you do and you think that could be a TV show, it very well possibly might. We’re not saying, oh, just because you think you might want to be on TV, you’d always be wrong for it. But it’s like people who just think that they’re a big, crazy character for crazy characters sake. That isn’t what good TV today is about. It’s about people who are really good at what they do and knowing they’re really good at that do, and thinking that might translate to TV.

Dana Golder: But.

Joke: I think it’s also the second thing you mentioned, which is so important, is what’s currently happening and who is currently in your life that is willing to go on camera and be just as open, as honest as you are, because we’ve had instances where someone’s like, I’m a big, crazy character and they are and they’re great television, but there’s nothing happening in their life currently, or no one around them wants to go on camera or is as good as they are, or even half as good as they are, and then that’s not enough.

Dana Golder: Or they can’t verify it. They’re sort of like a one trick pony, as I like to say. Like, you know, I consider myself a big character out to dinner with my husband and our friends. Are you going to see me being a big character every day in my life? Know? So I think that sometimes people they don’t miss, they miss, they don’t know how to read themselves. Right. So what I think the best also way of casting is I get people who come to me and say, I, there’s this woman in my church like, trust me, I see her in the parking lot. I see her with her family. I’ve been to her grocery store where she’s the checker. You got to check out this woman in my church. That’s where I usually, because you have someone else, has a bird’s eye view. It’s hard for people to have a bird’s eye view of themselves.

Joke: Right. And that that’s a great thing. Brings us to the next point, which is so producers who are listening, who you know, you mentioned, like, I need to find the people. Like, I want to find people who didn’t even know that they might make for decent television, who are just living their life. So as a producer, as a casting producer, how do you find those people?

Dana Golder: So it’s a lot of talking on the phone because social media is great. What that is great for is vetting, because usually you can get on all their their web pages and kind of verify, like, oh, do they really play soccer with their kids? Or oh, do they really do this because people kind of expose themselves in that way, but also picking up the phone and calling. I always give you the example of The Real Housewives of New Jersey. So that was a field producer who was calling around hair salons. Trying to find characters for a different show is how I remember the story. And I could be wrong, but it was to the effect of that he they called this hair salon and they said, look, I’m looking for big characters, you know, do you have anyone? And the hair salon said, you have no idea what’s going on with my clients. I can’t book this one when this one is in, and I can’t book this one when this one. And it turned out to be the entire cast of Real Housewives of New Jersey. The field producer flew there, put them all on camera, got the story, verified it from this person who had a great bird’s eye view, who was the the hair salon owner. And that was the best kind of verification that you could get to take you down a rabbit hole of all of that.

Joke: Totally. And so let’s say you hear about the Churchill lady and all of that stuff. What’s your advice and how to approach these people?

Dana Golder: You know, I feel like it’s easier for me only because, like, I am out there and I have a name and so people know me. So for me, what I do, I can really only share my experience is I say, hey, you know, ask them if they would be willing to talk to a producer a little bit more about their life and what it is that they do. And then I the best is for me to make contact with them and get their phone number and contact them. That way. Many times I’ll I’ll work a relationship for a year, two years, I’ll shoot someone, you know, and the network loses interest. Or two years later they’ll come back to me and say, whatever happened to that one thing that you showed me? Or maybe we could pair something else. So that’s why it’s always get direct contact yourself with that person, whoever that character is, to do the investigation on your own.

Joke: And is there questions you must ask?

Dana Golder: So people ask me this a lot at Real Screen too. And it’s like, how do I tell you how to have a conversation with someone? So you’re basically just having a conversation, which is who are you? How would your friends describe you? What? Walk me through a day in the life of you. What get you going in life? What are you? What are your hobbies? You know, my biggest thing that I always say is when I’m interviewing someone for a show and I say, what are your hobbies? And they say, oh my God, reading. I’m like, okay, next, because I can’t watch you reading all day. While I completely respect people who read, I like to read myself. You know, I can’t watch a TV show with people sitting around reading all day. Right. That’s your biggest thing. So it’s not going to happen. So, you know, someone tells me their hobbies are like saving the poor and going out in the soup kitchen and skydiving and whatever. There’s going to be more layers to what I’m watching them do on a daily basis and more characters in their life. Right.

Joke: And obviously, the questions you said earlier, which I think are very important, is like, what is currently happening? What are the next steps, like goals you’re trying to accomplish? And and we always ask them to describe the people around them kind of see, cause sometimes you know, the person you come across, they may be the straight person, but the crazy person is right next to them. Or even if you find the crazy person, it’s like, who’s the straight person that can play off of that? You know, to me, newlyweds only worked because Nicholas Shay was a straight guy and she was the wacky. Right? Like, you need the you need that kind of.

Biagio: Well, that kind of chemistry. It’s like a chemistry lab, right? You’re mixing up the ingredients, and you got to know that what you’re going to mix together is going to give you something greater than the individual parts.

Dana Golder: Well, I can’t stress. I’ll give you another example, two of the verification. So I’ve talked to people a lot on the phone the old fashioned way. I like to say, you know, before you get on, on Skype or the internet and the this family was city slickers. They had moved from New York City. They bought this giant farm down in Tennessee. They didn’t know what they were doing. They were milking cows. They were trying to run a farm. It was this whole big thing. You got to see me, got to see my family. It’s absolutely crazy. It’s totally bananas. Talk to each one of them on the phone. Bout to set up the Skype. I said send me pictures of the farm so I can get a feel for it. I already googled it, saw what the farm looked like. I said, you know, go out there and let’s see just with your iPhone, take some photos of like what you guys are doing. Well, there are renters in there right now. Well, what do you mean they’re renters? We’re actually we’re in the process of selling it. Okay, well, there goes my show. Like I’m confused. You just told me everything about you being on this farm. But now you’re living in an apartment down the street, and you’re thinking of moving back to New York City. It’s gone. The moment is over. It already happened. And they were quite lovely people. They went, oh, you know, they don’t know. This is the thing about dealing with real people. You’re not dealing with an agent. You’re you’ve got to. That’s why I love my job. I love talking to people. I love being human. I’m a mom. Just have to get down on the same level and really dive into their world.

Joke: But I think that brings up a good point where, like, I think a lot of times people are like, well, you know, we’re a great family, we travel a lot. And, you know, it’d be so cool to see us experiencing these different cultures or, hey, we’re, you know, we just started a small business and, you know, we’re going to do this, this and this and this. And then when it comes down to it, it’s like a lot of those pitches are contingent on a show going and the budget of the show paying for it. The idea that obviously these people were like, well, great, if the show goes, we’ll totally move back to the farm because then that’ll help pay for it. And then then there’s a reason for us to move back to the farm.

Dana Golder: Great point.

Joke: As opposed to these people are going to move back to the farm, whether there’s a show there or not. That’s the kind of stuff that you need to find. I think one of the greatest pitch tapes we ever did was with a character that we saw him walking around on some other, some other docu series. He was kind of like a guest star that came in and out and we’re like, oh my God, this guy’s.

Dana Golder: Donald.

Joke: TV show. We had ended up not selling the show, but the point is, when we approached him and said, you would make for a great TV show, he literally was like, what, me? You’re gonna me, you’re gonna follow me with cameras. And we’re like, yes, trust us. He’s like, I don’t know about that. And we’re like, you know, it’s the convincing of the person who might be reluctant. And sure enough, it was a great tape. We set it up as pilots, a couple of different places. But, you know, it’s that kind of that, that gem. Right? The diamond in the rough that you want to find. And that’s the one you want to put the spotlight on.

Biagio: Exactly.

Joke: Now we’ve talked about that. There’s different kinds of show obviously. Is there a different way for you to cast a docu series versus, you know, a skill based show like a Project Runway or a Scream Queens, which was an acting competition or obviously Biggest Loser? It’s less skill as it is more like health issue related show. But do you think of it differently when you’re talking about like a house show or there’s a competition series that’s happening and there’s somebody going to be a winner versus like, okay, I’m trying to follow a world, you know, a docuseries type more.

Dana Golder: Oh yeah, there are two totally different beasts. I mean, one is open calls. And, you know, you usually have big networks backing you and doing some publicity or that type of thing. You have a little bit more money to have a venue. I’ve held my own open calls for a major network. I put my own money forward where it was kind of an underground open call where I needed to get women who were over the age of 45 looking to date younger men. So cougars, we call it a reality TV and it was backed by a big network, but we couldn’t explain anything about it. We couldn’t really do an open call yet. And I flew to Atlanta because I’m like, I’m going to find some of these women there. I got into the world of Atlanta. I hung around in bars, I got dressed up, I made friends with the bar owner, and I just held my own undercover open call. And I said, look, free drinks for women who are over the age of 45. Want to have fun? Talk to a casting director and meet some people from LA. We’re going to have a good time. Come down. The guy gave us a back room. I put down my card. I maybe spent like 500 bucks. Everyone got their prosecco. I walked away with 12 amazing women for the show.

Biagio: You know, you see it ad like that. You might think it’s for something a lot more salacious than it was word of mouth.

Dana Golder: It was word of mouth. It wasn’t like I was like posting on Craigslist, like, hey.

Biagio: You want some drinks and meet some Hollywood producer? Let me. Yeah, but I was.

Dana Golder: Getting on the phone and showing your face was like old fashioned sales. It’s like going in and saying like, hey, here’s who I am, and.

Biagio: It’s you. At a certain point, it’s you, you know?

Dana Golder: Right. And I have a big web presence and people know me. And look, I genuinely, if they aren’t right for that show, they’re going to be right for something else. So I, I like to talk to people and sometimes those people come and pitch me their lives. But so my point is, yeah, when you’re doing competition show, you want people who are, you know, maybe they run marathons or they they do Ironman or they’ve, they’ve got to drive in them. They’re not just at a stage in their life because I would get a lot of this for Amazing Race for other stuff is like, well, I’ve got nothing going on right now, so this is the best time for me. It’s like, well, if you have nothing going on right now, this is not the best time for you because you’re just looking for something to fill a void. So what you actually really want is the person who’s like, oh my gosh, I have two teens at home. I’m working, you know, nonstop around the clock. Like now is the worst time. But I have this competitive drive in me and I want to win and I really need the money. You know, like, I’m behind in my mortgage. I’m behind whatever. They need it. Like there is an actual need there instead of like, this would be fun. And I’ve always wanted to travel or I’ve always kind of wanted to go on a game show. Those I’ve tried that, I’ve tried casting those people. I’ve talked to hundreds, thousands of them. It just never comes through. It never reads on camera, never reads on.

Joke: You miss the passion you need the you need the passion. And you know, you know, those shoots get really hard. And if someone is just kind of doing it for fun, it’s too easy for them to check out.

Dana Golder: Way too easy.

Joke: And so you need someone who has a lot at stake in participating so that, you know, when push comes to shove, they’re going to double down as opposed to bail.

Dana Golder: Yeah. Or some of these shows that I’ve Casper they travel the world and people a lot of people respond like, oh my God, I’ve traveled the world. And so I’d be perfect for this. It’s like, no, we want someone who hasn’t traveled the world because then they deserve it a little bit more. You’ve already seen the world, so let’s get someone who’s never done it. So there you go.

Joke: If you’re looking to go on Amazing Race, you got to be behind on your mark. You got to be crazy busy and you’ve not traveled the world well.

Dana Golder: And I don’t cast Amazing Race, so I don’t want to. You know, I don’t work for CBS. I want to make sure I say that.

Biagio: But yeah, now.

Dana Golder: We’re on our website.

Biagio: Go on our website, said show before. Yeah, but yeah, but I mean, I think those things probably hold true in a lot of cases. You know, it’s like there are certain things that you can say, look, if you’re someone who wants to be on one of these big shows, one of the worst things you can be like is like, oh, I always thought it would be fun, you know? Or, oh my gosh, I should be on your show because I’ve watched every episode and I know exactly how to act. You never want to hear that.

Dana Golder: Well, which we get a lot in Los Angeles. Why it’s hard to cast in Los Angeles, because being on a TV show is kind of the new. I’m going to go sit on a talk show like there used to be audience members like, or they’re still our audience members, like, oh, I’m going to go be on The Price Is Right. Well, now the thing is, like, I’m going to go and be on American Idol and sit in line and see if I can get my face on TV for a few minutes. And I’m not really a singer. I just want to go down there and be a part of the whole gang.

Joke: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dana Golder: So it’s a new hobby in a way. It’s a. Hobby which.

Biagio: Could make it hard to to weed out the good ones, because you’ve got thousands and thousands and thousands of people who maybe have different reasons for wanting to go out and audition.

Joke: But I think that leads us to a good a good point. What we always say on the on the podcast, like the worst place to be almost when you’re starting out producer is in LA or New York because, you know, there’s so much saturation of producers and reality shows and people casting in those cities. Like if you are in the middle of Tennessee and you find that next great Duck Dynasty family, that’s that’s the TV gold, right? So so.

Biagio: It’s just you’re not going to you’re not going to move to LA as somebody who wants to break into unscripted television reality and think that you’re going to find a business out here or a talent out here, the networks are going to automatically be interested in because they’ve been pitched in New York and LA to death. It seems like to me. I mean, what is it from your perspective?

Dana Golder: I mean, 1,000%, yeah. Unless you have connection to someone who’s not online. And there are these great, like Jem that you met them through someone else someway, somehow, and nobody’s talking to them.

Biagio: When I tell a lot of people who’ve moved to LA from somewhere else, don’t find your show out here. You have a whole hometown you’re from. Find your show back there. You know, like, I mean, you still know people. You still have connections. Look back there for your great talent for reality show. Don’t look in LA. Don’t look in New York.

Dana Golder: Oh, my God, I just had my 20th high school reunion. And like, that was the greatest unscripted networking situation for me ever. I went back to my hometown, talked to a thousand people, got up, we had little Facebook page. I’m like, oh my God, this guy is a lawyer. But traveling in the ocean and saving people and like also a fisherman. Like what? Like, you know, he I found so many people or people who came to me and said, oh my God, my cousin in North Dakota knows this person. You just follow the lead, follow the lead, follow the lead, follow the lead. And a lot of times it’s dead end. But you never know when you’re going to find someone who’s right for something.

Joke: Yeah. And I also think about, you know, when we travel the country for beauty and the geek casting that how we found this great beauty in little Rock, Arkansas. And I was ready to write off the whole town. It was a miserable experience for me in the summer in little Rock, Arkansas. But, you know, she comes walking in and you’re like, OMG! And you know, she stole that season. Like, she was fun and sassy and had so much heart. And you know, it was the perfect beauty for us so that you really can find these gems and, you know, most unexpected places.

Dana Golder: Oh yeah. I mean, that was my favorite show to cast for.

Joke: One of the things we’ve talked about a lot from a producer perspective is once you’re shooting, how important that level of trust is that you have with your cast. And I think one of the main reasons that hiring the right casting team is so important is that first meeting starts with the casting team, and sometimes not even with you, like the casting producer director. Like it starts with even casting associates. And so, you know, how how do you how important. I mean, do you agree with that? And how do you kind of get your team and you to kind of build that trust with these people so that when you hand them off to the producers, when it’s like, okay, the network signed off, here’s your cast, they’re on board. So like doing that hand off so that now the producers can keep that trust going.

Dana Golder: Right? So I mean, you guys know me that I get really sensitive about my people. And I really dive in there and I’m like, look, if you need me or whatever, I’m here for them. You know, I get very possessive, but it’s what is so great about working with you guys is great production companies and great producers. It’s it’s a smooth transition. So I’ve worked in some with some producers who they’re calling me like, can you get in here and can you talk to this person or whatever? Okay, that I know that that me holding their hand and walking them onto set didn’t work with those producers. And it happens because sometimes they don’t gel or something happens or whatever, and they call in a Hail Mary and they call the casting director to come in on set. But yeah, I every show that I cast my staff, I have to mix it up a little bit different of who’s going to be out there, who’s like has DLT casting name behind them, like who is going to be respectful? Like these are people’s lives. Like some people, you may get to the end of their story and they’re like, you know what? I really don’t want to do this show. And so you have to sit down and go like, okay, well, let’s look at the pros and cons, like, why don’t you want to do the show? And then you have to respect that. If they don’t you can’t push. And everyone’s got to be on the same page. And you know, you’ve got to be able to walk them through like the legal stuff. And I’ll just I will never cast a staff that isn’t sensitive or, you know, when I’m working with kids, it’s like, I’ve got to hire, hire aunts and uncles. It’s like part of my interview process when I’m hiring. Casting people is like, have you been around kids? I know that from being a stage mom now with my own kid is like, he worked with an actor who wrote on the resume, great with babies. Guess what? We showed up at set. This guy didn’t know how to hold the baby, didn’t like him. And I’m sitting here, the casting director with the mom of the baby going, oh, fudge, like, this is bad. This is why I hire my staff because they’re going into people’s homes sometimes with a camera. So if you’re going into a home with someone’s with a camera, like you, better check out. Great. Not have a good background. I’m Google the heck out of you. You know, I want to make sure that you are someone who is kind and courteous. You know, it all depends on whatever.

Joke: And for the record, whenever we do a show with kids, every crew member gets back around checks.

Biagio: Of course. Yeah.

Dana Golder: Full legal.

Joke: Background check. Make sure that, you know, there’s nothing fishy in in your history. But yeah, but even not when working with kids, you want to find people who are, you know.

Dana Golder: Compassionate or depends on the topic, like they’ve been there or they have the experience in that field.

Joke: And part.

Dana Golder: Of casting a tattoo show. I’m not going to have a staff of people who’ve never gotten a tattoo right. My people are going to be, you know, they’ve got 3 or 4 tattoos.

Joke: Yeah, they at least know what they’re starting to. Yeah. And so part of the end, part of your process, once you’ve found someone and you kind of got them through the process the last bit before they get handed off to, to the producers, you know, once the network has seen them and everything is signing that contract. And sometimes that’s like a 50 page contract. And obviously on a lot of the pilots and presentations, I’ve personally had to walk people through it. But on the bigger shows, when you’re like, okay, here you go. Scream Queens, there’s, you know, 40 girls coming to finals. You know, for us to pick ten, they all need to sign this. It’s a very scary contract.

Dana Golder: Very scary. Yeah.

Biagio: You know.

Dana Golder: Right. And how do you tell them I mean, yeah. So I’m the one talking to them about the contract because of the lawyer goes in and talks to them. Then they’re like, oh, I don’t like this. Why don’t you just change this? You’re the lawyer. So it’s like, the lawyer can’t spend all that time doing that. So that’s why, you know, I go in and really explain it to them. It depends show by show. But, yeah, it reads very scary. And normally you just have to wear it like a loose garment. You know, it’s not.

Biagio: I know it’s hard to tell people that. I’m going to give an actual specific example. Something happened to me years ago when me and Joe used to fund our projects by me winning money on game shows, which I did several times. I was on a show called The Chamber, but to be on the show after went through the whole audition process, they put the contract from me. It was like 100 pages. I was like one of the only ones who read the contract. And literally I said, If I’m reading this right, what it’s saying is I can’t do anything at all in any business related to film, TV or video for a year, which is a little bit of a problem because one, you know, I back then I was still an actor, but two, like I cut actor’s demo reels for a living. So I was like, so are you telling me that this contract says I can no longer edit actor’s demo reels out of my apartment? And a lawyer said, technically, yeah, yeah, that’s what it says. And then the executive producer was like, get up guy. He runs it and he grabs and he’s like, oh, she’s a lawyer. Don’t listen to her. She’s like, okay, well, I know what she I know she knows what she’s talking about. He’s like, listen, this clause is in there because I don’t want you to end up in the chair, which was the competing show at the time on another network. He’s like, they are not going to come after you for editing someone’s deal. They don’t even come after you. If you get an acting role, it’s like it’s it’s not that’s not what it’s about, but it’s in there. And so he convinced me it was worth it to sign it and edit actors them anyways. And I ended up winning, I think, 4500 bucks, which for us was a ton of money at the time and, you know, was worth a whole lot of, oh, you know.

Dana Golder: I would let Nickelodeon, but I don’t know about this.

Biagio: Oh, I wasn’t all the commercials for the chamber. The promos for the chamber all ended on a closeup of my face with fire being shot at my head screaming, bring it up!

Dana Golder: You’re like the dream game show contestant. Yeah, you’re the game.

Biagio: Show I knew. I knew how to get cast. I think I didn’t do so good on Hollywood Squares.

Dana Golder: Well.

Joke: They brought you back to it.

Dana Golder: I mean, you.

Biagio: Just lost. Well, I lost, and I lost so bad, they brought me back for the losers tournament, and I lost again. But on majority rules, I won $38,000. That’s how we funded our first film. But that’s a whole nother. But the point, the point of the story was these. These documents are scary. And if you sign them, you are technically legally signing away for some stuff. So you have to know what you feel good about and what you don’t.

Joke: And it’s one of those things that for a lot of these participants, it’s the first time reading one of these contracts. And obviously this is our business. So we see them all the time and we know what people care about. And we you know, there’s the lawyer stuff that they have to put it in. And then there’s the stuff of like what actually gets, you know, looked at and who cares and doesn’t care.

Dana Golder: And I would say in all of my years of doing all these contracts and seeing all this stuff, you know, that’s a great point of what you talk about is like, you can’t do anything for a year. That’s what so many actors and or anyone comes back and it’s like, but, but what if I get this or whatever? So I’ve never basically you generally you have to ask the network for permission or you just have to tell them because this is why that’s in there. They want to make.

Joke: Sure we had it on Scream Queens do and nothing was ever denied. Like actresses be like, hey, I get the small role on here, or hey, I’m going to do that. And it was always like, yes, yes, yes, yes, like, great, good for you. Go get more, you know.

Dana Golder: Totally. And the reason why they have that is so they want to make sure that you don’t you’re not on this show on their network. And then you get off the show and then suddenly you become a porn star and you’re like, yeah, so-and-so of VH1 Scream Queens is now. And you’re like, branding yourself with their name. So they have to have that in the contract so that you go to them and say, hey, this is what I’m doing, and they can be prepared for it, and they don’t have a goal over their face.

Biagio: They just make it super sweeping and it’s scary, you know?

Joke: Yeah. But you know, remember stuff where it’s like there’s a clause and there’s like you maybe taped at all times without you knowing. And then immediately people go like, oh my God, are you going to have a camera in the toilet? Right? And it’s like, no, I will not have a camera into toilet, but that’s there so that you can’t say, I didn’t know you were taping me, even though you’re on a TV show in a house where there might be cameras taping you.

Dana Golder: It’s the embarrassment clause. A lot of people are like, are you going to embarrass me? Is this a trick show? It’s what do you consider embarrassing? So you.

Biagio: Explain the embarrassment clause? Basically, in a nutshell.

Dana Golder: Embarrassing clauses like, okay, well, oh my gosh.

Joke: You have to sign. You have to sign something in the in the contract. And it’s very affirmative. It says, I know I will be embarrassed defamed, you know. Or I could be embarrassed. Famed derogatory remarks could be said about me. All these things, you have to acknowledge that that can and could will happen, depending on how strict the network wants to be.

Dana Golder: I’ll give you an example. So I had people on a game show, very friendly family game show, and they lost. And it was a mom and two daughters and they came off the set and she said, you humiliated us. You embarrassed us. Okay, well, in their term of definition, they considered losing being embarrassing. By no means did any of us see it as embarrassing. They were on a game show. They lost. They did great. They gave it their best shot. We were covered by that embarrassment laws clause, you know, like they. What do you consider embarrassing or, you know, you watch on a Real Housewives show? Oh my gosh, I came out of the show. I not came out of the show. I came out of the pool and my hair looked so bad in that shot. I was so embarrassed. You embarrassed me. No, you just didn’t like the way your hair looked.

Joke: So that’s why the contracts make you affirm that you know you will be embarrassed. It is not our goal to embarrass you. We don’t set out for you to be embarrassed. But this way you can’t claim I was embarrassed and I didn’t sign up to be embarrassed.

Dana Golder: How do you define embarrassed? Right. So that’s why you.

Joke: And it’s also a lot of these shows, you know, where it says, like, you know, people may say bad things about me, and participating in the show could mean to dietary comments. That doesn’t necessarily mean on the show, because it could be that this show now airs in your neighbor on social media, slams you, which is completely outside of our control. But you go, well, because of your show, this person is now slamming me. And again, not saying that’s not a trial that could be won by the network. It’s just it’s easier for them just to write it in the contract so they don’t even have to go through that.

Biagio: And also, by the way, yes. Like that is I mean, that’s just the reality of the world we live in today, by the way, not just if you go on a television show. I mean, if you try to do anything of any meaning in any portion of your life these days, someone’s going to say something about you on social media.

Dana Golder: That Instagram. I mean, people have some of the biggest followers and biggest fans. I mean, the stuff that those comments say, I’m always like, gosh, yeah, takes a lot of guts to go out there and put yourself.

Joke: Put yourself out there. Yeah. And that’s one of the reasons why that trust is built with the contestants, because we understand the guts that it takes for someone to put themselves on camera, to allow cameras to follow them, you know, to allow them on a journey as simple as, you know, a one episode game show because it’s like, yeah, you know, you’re playing a game and maybe you lose and you know how sort of a loser are you, and can you handle that? Can you handle losing on national television? Biagio can. He’s proven it multiple times.

Biagio: I’m not afraid of being made fun of. All right. So, so as we as we sort of wrap things up here, Dana, I would love it. And maybe stuff, taking some stuff you’ve already said or something you’ve already haven’t already said. But I love you to offer two pieces of advice. One for producers who want to go out and cast someone great, and one for people who really, truly believe they belong on a TV show.

Dana Golder: So there’s two pieces of advice here that go for both. And it’s hard because they’re conflicting pieces of advice. And one is never be afraid to put something or a piece of talent on the shelf, and you no wait for it to ripen or the timing to be right. Because so much of this is timing, and then two is no one to let go. So it’s hard because you want to say, you know, keep trying and keep try and keep trying. There’s a certain point where you have to understand, know if it’s your one piece of talent that you have and it’s your one show or whatever, you better have ten pieces right behind you that you’re excited about. Because if you get just stoked on this one person and you’re like, no, I’m gonna and you’re just shoving it down. Networks and people have said no and no and no. It’s just not good for anyone. It’s not good for you. It’s not good for your soul, doesn’t make you creative, doesn’t make you. It’s not going to fill you. You got to go out there and find more shows, more content, more stuff. So you’re not just banking on this one thing. Did that answer your question?

Biagio: Well that’s awesome. I think for the for the producers. And really it’s for people who want to be on TV too, because a lot of times they will keep pitching themselves over and over again and saying, I’m a TV show, I’m a TV show at a certain point. And you know what?

Joke: I just realized something because we’ve talked about the talent that says, I’m a TV show. I think, at least for me, mostly from like the docuseries perspective would like, follow my live.

Dana Golder: Joke always comes in.

Joke: But but there are also these pieces of talents that come to us who are maybe experts in something, who are more host driven shows. You know what I mean? That that aren’t saying follow my life, but are like, I’m a great trainer and I would be great as a trainer on a weight loss show or, hey, I’m a great chef. Don’t follow my personal life. I’m boring aside from that. But boy do I know how to get restaurants in shape. You know, like like things like that. Because that’s a different piece of talent that is really unique that we haven’t really talked about. And, you know, I think maybe if we’re like, listen, your docu series live, there’s nothing there, then maybe think about, can you be an expert in something? Because even our hosts today have to be experts in something like Anthony Bourdain is a host, but, you know, he’s an expert in taste, right? Like, you know, in, like, exploring things and all of that stuff. So it’s like, what can you be an expert in? And then what advice do you have to those people who, who you know are not looking for the docuseries? Follow doc, you know, follow my ups and downs, but who are like, hey, I have a really interesting insight to a particular world. Or, you know, hey, I could be I have a very interesting point of view that could be set in a certain world.

Dana Golder: Great. Get it on tape, by yourself, on tape. Let me see it. Let me see you talking to those people like that’s the first thing I want to do is see these women. You know, some people came and pitch me a show and it was wait till you see how we interact with people. When we go in, people’s minds are blown and when we blah, blah. Great. Have you gone to your neighbors and shot this? No, but she can tell you don’t care. Let me see you doing it and having that conversation with those neighbors, but also not just the host. You just made me think of something else. And this is why I always keep people when they pitch themselves this way, I say about putting them on the shelf and why, you know, a casting director comes in is maybe they’re right for an ensemble down the road. Maybe they’re right for me to partner them with someone else. You know, Beverly Beverly’s my secret person that I’ve kept hidden forever. And I’m like, the right thing is coming for her. She’s a mom at my school. She’s a fantastic. She’s into fashion, and the right thing hasn’t come up for her. And she’s going to be great for an ensemble one day. Or I need to pair her with someone else. I’ve been working with her for 3 or 4 years. Yeah.

Biagio: Awesome. All right, so people who are surfing the interwebs and want to look you up or find you on social media, your website, where where can they go?

Dana Golder: So I’m at DLT Inc on Instagram and I’m DLT casting.com on the web, and I’m at Dot casting on Twitter.

Biagio: Awesome. So we’ll link to those in the show notes which you’ll be able to find at Producing unscripted. Nine zero since this is episode 90. Welcome to one of our you know, every time we do a multiple of ten, we feel like it’s a big show. Dana. So, so welcome to episode 90. It was awesome having you. I love it I we will also, for those of you who are listening for the first time or maybe interested in working with me and joke, you know, part of the reason we started this podcast was one to give people real insights into what it’s like to work in the industry, since honestly, there are a lot of there’s a lot of bad advice on the internet. We know because we took some of it when we were trying to break in. And the other thing is, a lot of people have always asked us, how can we pitch shows to you? So we we, we basically figured out a way to set up a portal where if you have a concept and you’d like to pitch it to us, or if you’re a real person who thinks that you should have a television show for a reason other than you’re so funny, you’re crazy. You can find out how to pitch to us by going to Producing Unscripted. Com signing up for the newsletter and following the directions couldn’t be much easier. So with that, I just want to say, Dana, thank you so much. We’ve worked with you all these years. Your love you guys. Phenomenal. We love you. It’s always awesome whenever we had you in our building. I hope we get you back in the building again soon. All right. Well thanks everybody for tuning in. We’ll be back in two weeks with episode 91. Until then.

Unidentified Voice: See you later.

Biagio: See you later.

Unidentified Voice: Bye bye bye.

Announcer: Producing Unscripted with Joke and Biagio.