Wanna' read along? Here’s a machine-generated transcript you can use. Yes...expect a few mistakes, especially with funky industry terms, interesting names and tagging whoever's talking. If something sounds weird, trust your ears. But...sometimes that really is what we said!
Biagio: Hey, everybody. She’s joke. He’s Biagio. We’re married. We make unscripted film and television and want to help you do the same.
Joke: Hopefully by teaming up with us.
Biagio: All right, well, welcome back for another very exciting episode. So exciting. So exciting. Actually, this this one. Jo Jo came up with the idea for this, this podcast episode, and, well, I don’t know why you’re laughing. It’s a very important topic. I was really excited when you when you so kindly pitched it out to me. Well.
Joke: It kind of started with about an hour ago when you said, oh man, we got to do the podcast.
Biagio: Okay. It kind of did. I’m not gonna lie. I was like, you know, listen, I think in episode one we warned everybody we are not professional podcasters. And I think every episode of this show proves that. But, you know, we are we are what we are, you know, because we’re full time TV producers. But here we are.
Joke: And we want to honor our commitment of a podcast every two weeks.
Biagio: Yes, we do.
Joke: Which is, listen, I never could keep a diary for more than like a month. So the fact that we’re still going to yours into this is pretty amazing.
Biagio: Almost three years.
Joke: Oh good lord. Okay, so so one of the things that we talk a lot about, right, especially in reality television, is the real people that we make our shows with. So we wanted to talk about or the thing that I pitched the Biagio about an hour ago was talking about the relationship that you have with your on screen talent and like five things stages, things that keep in mind as you work your way through it.
Biagio: So which, by the way, is as joke glossed over quickly there. But I want to point out, you know, strongly and confidently, we can’t make unscripted television without real people like these. Relationships are crucial. This is everything. This is key.
Joke: Talk about it every day in our business, in our work. Because, you know, every show requires a different relationship and so on and so forth. So anyway, step one is what do we call this on screen talent, especially in unscripted television. You know, there’s different names, right? There’s subjects. There’s Pallant, there’s participants, there’s contestants, there’s interviewees. And the truth of the matter is, is it’s a little bit specific to the format of the show that you’re pitching. So in unscripted, as we’ve said numerous times, it’s kind of a wide bucket. And so in documentary, a lot of times, you know, the talent is called the subject of the film, right? It’s the you are following a subject on their journey in game, whether that’s, you know, like game shows like Family Feud or it’s even, you know, beauty and the geek or Big Brother or Survivor, you know, those are we usually can call them contestants, right? Because they are participating to win something. But, you know, in the docu format or, you know, just a doc. You know, they could be called subjects or participants. And it really comes down to the relationship that you will be building with them. So if, for example, on a show like a survivor, you’re casting more characters, which is another word we sometimes use then then those words and participants and characters kind of work more in line with that. If you’re truly doing a docu series, kind of like our Caged or documentaries where you’re following people, then usually we call them participants or subjects that you’re following. So the names that are being used really kind of help define the relationship that you’re building.
Biagio: Well, yeah. And again, because if they’re competing for something they’re a contestant. That means they automatically have sort of a different relationship and different expectations of what they’re getting out of the project.
Joke: Which brings us to.
Biagio: Point number two, expectations.
Joke: And most of the time it comes down to whose story really is this? Is it their story? And we’re following along and it’s very much a docu series. Is it the producer’s story of, you know, Real Housewives of Beverly Hills? Sure. You know, we’re following these people, but we’re really telling a story of the craziness that goes on in these households and at these parties and at these galas. Right. So it’s also more the producer story. Is it, you know, the family feud or a contest or game, then obviously it’s absolutely the producer story because the whole thing is constructed, right? You’re on a stage, you’re answering questions that have been pre-written by teams and lawyers and all this other stuff. So again, it’s important when you are casting people on these shows, for example, a dating show, the conversation that is being had with The Bachelor is very different than with the girls competing to be on The Bachelor, or to become the final girl. At the end of The Bachelor, there’s a different relationship that the producers have with the one person who’s doing the picking, and the many girls or guys who are hoping to be picked. And it’s important. What we found is, is more honest. You can be with those expectations, you know, the more you’re going to get in return from your people and the less you know what? This isn’t what I signed up for. You’re going to get.
Biagio: Yeah. It’s again, it’s always about communication and honesty. And I think one thing that we we pride ourselves on, we work really hard to do. And honestly, sometimes we need to work really hard to make sure the network understands why we’re doing it is, is to be completely honest with our people and make the show we promised in the first place, because that’s so important right there, trusting you with their lives.
Joke: And sometimes in documentary, when you’re following a group of people, you don’t quite know the story you kind of know going in like, oh, this seems to be a topic. But the story ends up developing and some people become main characters or, you know, really you follow the story as a producer, right? If certain things are happening more with certain people, and the other people become more secondary characters and, you know, in support of your main story, that’s fine too. It’s just, you know, it’s part of being honest with people and that helps solve a lot of issues down the line. But this brings us to number three releases. And this is always a tricky time, where now we’re talking about pen to paper. And it very much immediately clarifies to a lot of people what they’re signing up for. It also makes it very scary. And this is where the relationship you’ve built with them to this point really comes into play. Some documentarians wait a long time before they ask for releases to be signed. In our business, you know, networks demand releases get signed right up top, which it should, because there’s a lot of money at stake. So releases you wanted to say something about releases.
Biagio: Why did I just want to just for people who maybe are new or not sure exactly what a release is, especially if you’ve been out in the Wild West, you know, one man band shooting your own stuff. You may have never gotten a release in your life. You know, a release is basically the talent signing over to you, the giving you permission to film them. But a release very specifically spells out the terms with which everyone’s agreeing. And some releases can be one page and very simple. In some releases, like the ones on MTV’s caged, could be 50 pages or more of the craziest stuff you’ve ever read. And I think that’s what joke is going to get a little more into it. Just if you’ve never had to go out and have someone sign a release, you might be like, releases, what are they talking about? And I think it’s important to know that it release while it is someone giving you permission to film them. It can be a page or it can be 50 pages or 100 pages.
Joke: As a producer, I would advise you, my fellow producers, to really actually read the releases and understand them and talk to the business affairs or the lawyers that are asking you to sign them or asking you to have the talent sign them and make sure that you can answer any and all questions. So, as Biagio said, for caged, I think there were some pages because it’s a docu series and you’re following these people for a year of their life, and, you know, there are lots of different things that everyone wants to feel comfortable with, things that are, you know, very specific, as in, hey, if we’re following you and you get into some kind of accident or medical emergency, you give us the right to take you to a doctor, you know, or hey, in success, you know, we want to be able to call you in for ten interviews for press, you know, things like that. Like they literally cover everything because they never know if you’re going to be the next Jersey shore. So they want to make sure they have everything covered from here until, you know, the end of times. But then there are shows like or goes inside My Child where we are doing pretty much, you know, profile one offs. We tell someone’s story in that one episode, and I believe the release for that for the families, maybe five pages, 3 to 5 pages, I don’t quite remember. And then there’s others, you know, where, you know, it’s, it’s just a we’re just doing someone’s interview and we’re done with them in two hours. And, you know, maybe that’s a page and a half or two pages, depending on what the show is. So, you know, if you’re doing a house show like Big Brother or Survivor or, you know, Real Housewives or any of those shows, you know, there’s usually a clause of like, you know, there might be hidden cameras and then people get worried and they’re like, what does this mean? Are you going to have cameras in my bathroom? No, it just means that sometimes you might be being filmed or taped without you knowing it, because we have a camera in the other room shooting through a doorway right now. Obviously that clause wouldn’t be necessary for just doing an interview show, and you’re just sitting down in front of a camera, like, there won’t be a time where we’re taping you without you knowing, because we’re not just following you around all day. So, you know, there’s different clauses for different types of shows. But again, if you’re doing a docu series and you’re following someone around for a long time, these might get very intense and extensive, and it’s good for you to know what it means so you can help explain it to your talent.
Biagio: Yeah. And like Joe kind of hinted at, like, lawyers will ask for the craziest things. And sometimes I like you. You don’t even know why they’re making you put this in your release, and you’re like, this is insanity. But the lawyers like, no, they have to sign it. You know, they have.
Joke: To remember one time, this is for a pilot that never ended up going to series, but this was a perfectly normal, safe, I think, docu series or there was no danger at all. Right? Like girls sitting around chatting. Pretty much. And then we wanted to write a show. Never went. Just kidding. No, but not to give away the show to keep, you know, the the innocent and guilty. Anonymous. There was nothing scary about it. But in the agreement, they put a hazardous activities clause. Okay, so obviously our cast was like, what do you mean hazardous activities? I’m not signing up to do any hazardous activities, which is some girls chit chatting and gossiping. So I went to the lawyers and I was like, listen, there’s a problem with this hazardous activities clause because they’re concerned about what it means, what you know, where do you think this comes into play? And the lawyer said, well, you know, listen, if they’re out having fun and they start drinking, you know, and one of them decides to walk off the roof of a parking garage and they get hurt. And I was like, wait, so when do you want me to have them sign it? Because literally part of the hazardous activities clause is you have to list the activity. So at that point I would have to fill in getting drunk, walking off parking garages. And they’re like, yes, exactly. And I said, so you don’t want me to have them sign it while they’re drunk on top of the parking garage because they’re now intoxicated. So it would make it valid for invalid for them to sign it anyway. And they said, that’s correct. So you want me to have them sign it after they’ve fallen and they’re now? It was so ridiculous they couldn’t answer it either. It became this big thing where ultimately they didn’t want to take it out. And we would just have to tell the CAS, listen, you want to be part of the show, just know this is in here. And, you know, I don’t think there will be any hazardous activities, but please trust me. And so that’s part of the relationship again that you come to where you try everything you can with the lawyers. And ultimately sometimes you might win some and then some you might lose. And then it’s about the relationship you build with the talent and say, listen, I don’t see this coming in the play, but the lawyers are covering their their behind. So anyway, this brings us to point number four. The word you hear me say a lot, which is trust. Trust with your talent that you’ve now, you know, been honest with, you’ve now filmed with, you had them sign releases. You’ve now had this relationship. But the point that I’m really trying to make is the trust in the edit. It’s important as a producer to make sure that you know, you feel comfortable with what you’re doing in the edit and that you honor that trust.
Biagio: Yeah, I mean, listen, the minute we all know TV shows are edited, you go out and you shoot hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours of footage that has to be edited down. You can never show things as they actually happened. It’s physically impossible. So anything you edit is, by its very nature, a distilled representation of reality. It has to be right. We don’t have hundreds of hours to sit around and just watch boring footage. Okay, but what? But you still have to be really careful that when you edit, whether it’s an interview bite or a scene, you have to make sure that those edits accurately represent the spirit of what happened.
Joke: I can tell you right now, we always feel that we have to be able to answer for the decisions we make in the edit. Okay. And the last part, and this is really simple. It’s to show or not to show the program to your talent before it airs. And a lot of this will depend on the network. Some networks will allow you to show it. Some networks won’t allow you to show it. Sometimes you can negotiate with the network to have like a password protected link showing them just a few hours before it even airs or whatever it is. It also depends on the show. Obviously Big Brother, they can’t show to the contestants. It would blow the entire point of the show. Also, they air life half the time. So. In in the game type shows, they usually don’t show them ahead of time so that the the contestants are watching the show live with the rest of the world. And that’s kind of been the standard, mostly because they don’t want any information leaking. And for docu series or docu formats for caged, for example, we made it a point to have the main cast view the episodes before they aired. Just as a courtesy so they wouldn’t watch. You know, they’re good and they’re bad. Their highs and their lows. For the first time with the rest of the world, they’d had a chance to absorb it. And again, also because some of it had happened like the year before. So they’d already moved on personally. But, you know, they could see it now in its entirety. But yeah. So it’s a personal decision that’s highly regulated by network as a producer to decide. And honestly, you know, if the network leaves it up to us, we take it on a case by case basis.
Biagio: So there you go. Very, very good list of five important aspects for working with talent honey. Way to put that together today. And I think it’s always super duper important information. And by the way, it’s stuff that we could never, ever find when we were when we were first starting out. So I hope that this sort of, sort of gives people some guidance and some confidence when they’re dealing with talent, especially for the first time in some of their first shows are really projects. But why don’t you give me a quick recap of those five things? How would you how would you some them up, honey?
Joke: Well, one would be, you know, figuring out what format of show you’re doing and that’ll help you define what you call your on camera talent. What are it’s a participant and doc or a subject of a doc? A contestant on a game. Characters in doc, sometimes we call them characters, although that feels very narrative, but so figuring out what to call your on camera talent is important. Number two would be talking about the expectations with your on camera talent, about what’s expected from them. Are they being cast, you know, to fill a specific role or to compete in a game? Or are we literally following their life, or are we following their best friend’s life? And we’re asking them to to help out with that? Number three is the releases. Is working with your lawyers or the network’s lawyers to draft the releases that you know, accurately protect not just you as the producer, but help explain to the talent what’s expected. Number four is the trust that you’ve built with your talent through development and through shooting is keeping that trust in mind in the edit, keeping yourself and your story truthful. And then lastly is, you know, deciding what or not to show the program to the participants ahead of its airing. And again, that depends on a lot of different aspects, mostly dictated by network.
Biagio: So there you have it. Five very important decisions to make when dealing with talents. As always, thank you for for tuning in. I like I said at the beginning podcast, we are now professional podcasters. We make television for a living and podcast in the hopes of meeting good people and inspiring other people to make their own TV shows. For those of you that would like to pitch to our company, you can do so by going to Producing Unscripted. Com signing up for the newsletter and following the directions. It can take us a little while, but we do try to give a specific answers on every single pitch. And you know, and whether or not you ever work with us. We hope that this podcast helps you in your career, and I think that there’s a lot of information in here that will help you. No matter what kind of shows you’re making.
Joke: Have a good night. I mean, good day.
Biagio: Good. What’s good? Whatever it is. That’s right. All right, we’re just gonna just, like, pull ourselves across the finish line now and saying, see you in two weeks for everybody.
Joke: See you in two weeks. Goodbye.
Announcer: Producing Unscripted with Joke and Biagio.
