Make Reality TV: 5 Steps to Great Cast Relationships

Announcer: Welcome to Producing Unscripted with Joke and Biagio.

Angry Man: Is this some kind of joke?

Confused Woman: Biagio-WHO???

Announcer: This episode…

Biagio: It’s episode 42 and we’re talking about your cast. We cover five steps to great cast relationships, the right way to prepare your cast for a show. How to get great story without putting words in your cast’s mouths, which TV business facts you must teach your cast before you shoot. And why it’s crucial to know when the toilet paper runs out.

Announcer: Music courtesy of Dave Pelman Music, davepelman.com

Biagio: Hey, everybody. She’s Joke.

Joke: He’s Biagio.

Biagio: We’re married, we make unscripted film and television and want to help you do the same, hopefully…

Joke: By teaming up with us.

Biagio: That’s right. So hey we’re hitting the holiday season here. so for those of you listening to this as it comes out, it’s almost turkey day, so happy turkey day. Is that politically correct?

Joke: Yes, I guess, unless you’re vegetarian.

Biagio: And happy tofu-rkey day? Tofu-rkey? Is that—It’s like tofu turkey? Tofu-rkey? I don’t know.

Joke: Cranberry sauce day?

Biagio: Have a great day, whatever it is you’re celebrating even if it’s just watching some good football or hanging out at home. We wanted to talk about today about something that we think is just crucial to making good television, and that is really working with your cast to make sure your show turns out great.

Joke: Exactly.

Biagio: At the end of today’s episode, we’re going to talk a little bit about Wesley Branch, one of our favorite characters from one of our favorite shows we ever made Caged, who had a little bit of an accident. And we’re going to tell you about what people are doing to help him out. But the whole situation really got us thinking about how important our casts are to us. Not just for the TV show, but just as people that we work with and we get to know.

And so, that inspired us to put together today’s episode. What we thought we’d do is really break down our philosophy to working with real-life people so that at the end of the day you don’t just have a great show, but people are happy that they did the show and you feel like you can be proud of what you made.

Joke: Your cast really is your partner in any of this because they’re the ones putting their lives or themselves on cameras. So like with any partnership, it’s important to work at it and make sure that it’s beneficial for both parties.

Biagio: So in thinking about your cast as your partners, as the most important people to you in the process of making a show, we put together these five steps that I think if you follow, will really ensure that at the end of the day you make a show you’re proud of. And everybody is as happy with it as they can possibly be. So, step number one.

Joke: Establish trust and communication. And really, it’s all about trust and you get to trust because of communication so they kind of go hand in hand. But there has to be a certain honesty and there has to be trust from both sides of it. You as a producer has to trust that your cast is being honest with you.

And one of the main things is that if something doesn’t feel right to them or they’re not happy, is that they have to communicate that to you. Because you as a producer can’t help fix their problem unless you know that there is a problem or that there is a concern.

One of the stories we always say is that when we did Beauty and the Geek. We provide them in a house with all the basic necessities and food and stuff like that. But if they run out of toilet paper and they don’t communicate it with us that, “Hey, guys, we’re running out of toilet paper. Can you pick up some more toilet paper?” Then it’s going to get to be a really tense situation with the cast being upset that they’re living in a house that doesn’t even have toilet paper. But I can’t buy you toilet paper unless I know that you’re running out of toilet paper.

So a lot of times things are very easily fixed just by communicating. Tensions disappear, and as it is with any relationship. So there has to be a trust that they’re going to communicate the issues they’re having with you so that you can do everything in your power to remedy those.

And at the same time, there has to be a trust from you to them, that you will share with them and be honest with them about what’s expected. And also if these expectations change over the course of the show that they’re clued in to that.

And that’s just something that we believe in, in terms of an honesty and keeping that trust and communication going with your cast. Where if you set out thinking the show is going to be one-way and everyone’s onboard with that, and then halfway through shooting or as cuts come in, as network notes come in that changes. I think it’s only fair at that point to keep everybody in the loop on what’s changing and how that’s going to affect things and how we can still make everybody comfortable with that.

And again, on our podcast we talked about notes and being very upfront with the network before you even shoot anything about the expectations. It helps. It helps, at that point you’re really understanding what the network’s expecting and being able to deliver that. There’s going to be less changes midway through which is going to be less issues for the cast to have to reconsider or deal with.

So we really believe in trust and communication. They have to trust that you know how to do your job and when you’re pushing them and asking them to do things that might feel uncomfortable, that they trust you it’s going to be okay. That you have their back and you have to get them to trust you in the fact that we’re not putting together glamor shots of everything, that we’re going to show maybe missteps but we’re going to see them hopefully trying to correct those missteps.

And we’re not putting together everything is wonderful all the time picture, but they have to trust that you are going to show those different sides of things. And that we’re all being very honest about what’s expected.

Biagio: Yeah, and listen, and this trust begins long before a show even gets picked up for air. I think Joke talked about some great examples from Beauty and the Geek and sort of dealing with cast once you’re sort of already underway. But this begins all the way before you ever even pitch a show.

For instance, say you discover a great cast and you really want to go out and pitch them. You need to let them know upfront what kind of networks you’re thinking about pitching their show to, what kind of show is it, are you looking to let them sort of lead a follow doc? Are you looking to cast them in a format show?

Remember everyday, people, they don’t understand the ins and outs of the business, they don’t know the difference between format and docu and hybrid. And so you really need to let them know, “Listen, this is the kind of show I’m looking to make.”

Because if you have some guys that think they’re going to end some rough and tumble guys that for some reason, have always dreamed of being on E! or Oxygen, I can’t imagine that will be the case. But of course, you need to let them know, “Look, no, you’re rough and tumble guys. You’re going to end up on a channel like History, or Discovery or Nat Geo.”

And vice versa if you’ve got some young, beautiful women who are running their own business, you need to let them know that you’re looking at places like Oxygen, and TLC, and maybe MTV or ABC Family. And then also, what kind of shows are on the air at those networks. Because a show tonally on Oxygen feels very different than a show tonally on the History channel.

So you need to make sure that they’re comfortable with the kind of programming you want to sell that’s going to star them. And you’ll be surprised because just because you’ve been listening to this podcast and you’ve been watching TV, you have a good natural understanding of what kind of show you might be making with a specific kind of person. They don’t.

In most people’s minds you’ll meet, there’s no difference between them being on a reality show or being on Law & Order. Like the whole world of entertainment is a mystery to them. They’re really not going to understand how it works, so you have to prepare them so their expectations are in line with the kind of show you’re pitching and that they’re comfortable with it, as Joke pointed out.

So that brings us on to point number two: Do not try to put a square peg in a round hole. Basically, this is a symptom of, hey, I’ve discovered an amazing character. They’re incredible, but I’m going to try to make them do something that I think is more TV-friendly. And that never works.

Joke: Yeah, and I think this is all on the producer. I mean, this is really on you, because as Biagio pointed out, most talent is not necessarily aware of a lot of the business end of things or how networks are trying to create storytelling, write great stories.

So you as a storyteller, and you’re shaping these storylines or characters or whatever you have to understand that if your character is an A-type personality who really likes to do X, Y, and Z, you can’t all of a sudden turn them into something completely different, doing A, B, and C.

So it’s just really important that you understand them. And sometimes, it may mean that you figure this out during the sizzle reel. I mean, we’ve had these instances where we’ve talked to people on the phone and they themselves think of themselves as, I don’t know, big, crazy adventurers.

And then you start shooting the show and you realize they’re actually quite safe and they’re a little more quiet. I mean, they’re still exciting but not in the kind of way that they may be have an image of themselves. And so, you have to figure out then, “Okay, is this somebody that I can push to be that level? Do they just need some more confidence and some practice? Or is it really like, okay they’re just not that person?”

If you think you’re going to cast this person as somebody who’s really outspoken and we need a loud mouth to counter our main character or whatever. And you’re like, oh, this person must be it and then you realize, they’re really not. It’s just you can’t keep pushing them into something they’re not.

It doesn’t work out for them, they’re uncomfortable, it doesn’t work, they’re going to be unhappy, it’s just they’re not going to be happy, and you’re not going to be happy. Because you’re going to look at all your footage and you’re going to try and put the story together and it’s not just going to be there.

So it’s just really important whether it’s a host you’re trying to cast for a format show or whether you’re putting together an ensemble for a docu series. If the character really isn’t there, if you can’t let them be their authentic self and that’s not that their authentic self doesn’t quite fit in your puzzle, then it’s just not meant to be.

Biagio: So let’s move on to step three: Educate your talent. Especially on the style and genre of show you’re making. Now we’ve touched on this a little bit already, but remember, it’s so important to realize that real people don’t understand the television business. And so you got to make sure that they understand the difference between being on a big format show or being on a follow doc where they generally, they’re genuinely leading the show because you’re following their lives.

Joke: Or somewhere in the middle. And I think it’s just as important to educate the talent as it is for you to consciously be aware of what is expected, of what you’re expecting from your talent. If you’re doing a big format show, even when we’re doing Scream Queens and you’re casting eight or ten girls and putting them in a house together. You’re casting archetypes, you’re casting different types of personalities for specific reasons. And if you, as one of those actresses on the show, are able to stick around all the way to the end, chances are you’ve gotten a lot more screen time and we will have seen different sides of your personality.

Biagio: Alright, so I just want to clarify. When you say actresses, you’re talking about actresses on our show, Scream Queens. We don’t cast actors and actresses on our shows. You can already see somebody out there being like, “Oh, those reality producers, they’re casting,” we’re talking about our specific show, Scream Queens, when we were casting actresses who are competing—

Joke: Who were competing.

Biagio: For a role. Yeah.

Joke: Right. So, okay. So, our ladies. I’ll just call them our ladies. So if you’re one of the ladies who happens to stick to around all the way to end, you will have had much more screen time and therefore the audience will have seen lots of different sides of your personality, hopefully.

But if you’re unfortunately, one of the ladies who is eliminated early on, I mean, by sheer reality of things. You’ve had less screen time and therefore, you probably will leave the show with the audience not getting a sense of who you, as a human being truly are.

And that’s just something that everyone needs to understand. If you’re going on Survivor, you are being cast as an archetype very early on. And again, if you last the show, the audience will get to know you on different levels and you’ll have faced different obstacles, and how you handled those obstacles will reveal sides of your personality. As with most of these format shows are intended to do. And people will get a better sense of who you are.

However, if you’re eliminated early, they just kind of know what you were cast for. And so, that’s kind of on the format angle people need to understand. On a docu series, if it’s truly like hey, we are just following you and your family, we’re going to get a better sense of things. If it’s kind of a docu ensemble in terms of maybe housewives type of show where you’re kind of being cast of being cast for different personalities. And you know hey, I’m being cast because I have a lot of conflict with this woman but I’m also best friends with this woman, with this other woman. You’re going to kind of get different sides of your personality based on whose scenes you’re in.

And if you’re cast as a male character in kind of a hybrid docu, whether it’s like a Deadliest Catch type of thing, it’s going to be about who you are and your personality under a certain set of circumstances. We all are so layered and we don’t get to see on television every single side of every single person just because there’s not enough time for that.

But docus try to do that more than format shows. So it’s important to understand as producer, what you are casting this person for, what part of their authentic self you’re trying to put on television, and to communicate that with them if you feel like their expectations are different than what you’re going to end up using them for.

Biagio: Yes. Alright, so moving on to step four: Push your talent. What do we mean by this, by push your talent? Because it sounds very ominous, Joke. But it’s actually not. Let’s talk about what we mean by push your talent.

Joke: Yeah, and this is kind of how to get them onscreen to be interesting and exciting and all of those things. And so really, is you start with them being their authentic self off-camera and you ask them to on-camera, be just as open and just as honest as they hopefully by this point are with you off-camera.

And we always start every show that way. I ask our cast for three things: I ask them to be open. Open means open to change, open to things happening, open to other people coming in and out of their lives, obstacles facing them, don’t just be closed off. Just take life in, be honest about how you feel about things. And in real life, we’re not always open and honest.

A lot of relationships go awry or a lot of people don’t quite get to where they want to get in life because they’re not open to opportunities or they’re not honest with themselves and how they feel about things. And so, a lot of things in real life kind of take a long time to get to a conflict or they just kind simmer and die or wilt away, and it doesn’t make for exciting television.

So the reason we’re asking people to be open and honest is something that might take you a year to deal with. I’m not going to be shooting with you for a year, so I’m going to ask you to deal with it right then and right there, head-on.

And one of those examples was on Caged with Daniel Payne who’s been in this in and out relationship for three years and the girl was getting really-Brittani was like, “Are we in? Are we out? What’s going on?” And he was just kind of letting everything languish and it was us pushing him to finally face how he felt.

I didn’t care if he decided to stay with her or break up with her. It was just make a decision, like do something. Like make a decision, be open, be honest about your feelings and don’t just hope things will go away. And that’s exactly what I promised her. I said, “Listen, I can’t promise you he’s going to stay with you or that he’s going to break up with you. But I’m going to promise to get you an answer.”

And that’s kind of what pushing your talent. And the third part that we always ask them is, be willing to grow. And that’s a big one. And story is following somebody from point A to point B and they are different at point B than they were in point A, right? That’s just kind of the essence of what the story is, is you follow them on this journey.

And so you have to have talent who’s willing to grow and who is willing to get to a different place than where they started. And that might be make a realization about themselves, make a realization about their work, their friendships, what they want out of life. It’s just be willing to grow. Be willing to grow up, be willing to grow and just change and just get to be a better and new version and more updated version of yourself.

And again I don’t believe in pushing people to a certain outcome. Meaning, if you’re like, “Well I now want them to be dating,” or “Now I want them to—” I’m not saying that. Don’t force them to grow into a certain direction. Just ask them to grow where they would naturally grow.

Biagio: Yeah, I mean because at the end of the day, you’re just asking them to love life to the fullest. And to be honest, I think if we all just took the advice in our own lives, and we’re open and honest and dealt with issues as they came up and allowed ourselves to grow and change, we’d probably all be happier people anyway.

Again, Joke said it and I just want to double punch it home. It’s not about pushing people into an outcome. It’s just about encouraging them to be open and honest enough to deal with their problems and grow enough that they’re living life to the max. And it happens to make for good TV.

Honestly, it also happens to make for a better life, I believe, which is great. That brings us to step number five and this is so important. Please remember that your cast is made up of real people.

Joke: And that’s the biggest thing because everything that we’ve said, I can already see the skeptics out there, “Ah, this is supposed to be reality and these are real people. And what are you doing?” And it’s true. I mean, we are by the sheer force of being there and putting a camera on them, whether you’re a reality show or documentary you are changing their life. Things are changing because before you were there, there was no camera. And now there’s a camera.

So even if you don’t say anything at all and you just point a camera to them, on them, they are going to change. Something is happening that they might make different decisions or whatever. So, it’s just important that you know as an unscripted producer, that your mere presence is affecting change. And that these are real people that you are changing.

And so, there’s a responsibility that comes with that, in our opinion. That when you leave and those cameras leave and you move on to the next project and the next cast, is those people have now been changed. Something has happened.

I think it was JD Roth who’s at the EP on Beauty and the Geek, would tell the cast before they moved into the house, “Your life will forever change at this moment. It will be your life before Beauty and the Geek and your life after Beauty and the Geek.” Because staying in a house with different people from different backgrounds for that amount of time, it changes you. It changes how you see the world, it changes everything.

On the show Caged, where we lived with them for almost up to a year, even though it was their life we were documenting, we were asking them to be open and honest and grow. And it changed them. It changed what they thought they wanted in life and all those things.

So there’s a responsibility that comes with that. And it’s just keep yourself in check and make sure that you are not leaving these people off worse than when you found them. That’s kind of really our goal.

Biagio: Well, I mean, our goal is really to leave them better off than you found them.

Joke: Right.

Biagio: And you can’t always do that but that’s what we try to do.

Joke: Yeah. I mean the goal is to leave them better off and even if that means they’ve grown and they’re more honest with themselves, that’s an improvement, in my opinion. If you can leave them off the same way you found them, it won’t have made for a great story on your end from a producer. But at least you haven’t created too much havoc on their life.

But it’s just important that how you handle them off-camera and how you build those relationships is just as important than the stories you tell because these are real people.

Biagio: Yeah. And listen, every producer has a different philosophy on working with cast. And I respect anybody who’s made it to a point where they’re making good unscripted entertainment about real people. Our point of view as Joke pointed out, I mean, we want to leave people better off than we found them. And we really try to do that.

I have a rooting interest in feeling like the shows we make in some way will make people’s lives better. And that’s something that’s very important to us because we do consider our cast our family. And on that note—

Joke: And I think to be quite honest, when you part ways it doesn’t necessarily always feel that way immediately for the cast. When you’re doing a competition elimination show and someone is eliminated on the first round, it’s a pretty horrendous feeling. And they’re not leaving that show at that point saying, “Hey, man. Thanks so much. That was awesome.”

There’s an ego that was hurt at that point and there’s reflection that’s going to need to happen. You just hope that maybe by participating in kind of a talent competition show and they’re being eliminated on the first round, then maybe they realize, “Okay, maybe I’m not as good as I thought I was,” or “Maybe this ends up not being what I’m looking forward to for the rest of my life.”

Or maybe it’s the opposite. It’s like, “You know what? I did learn a lot. And I learned that I need to step up my game and I’m going to work harder at this and I’m going to do more and everything.” So I don’t want to sit here and be like, “Oh, we always leave in a very Kumbaya environment. We don’t.

Some people don’t end up liking the picture that they see of themselves on television. Whether it’s a vanity thing, that they don’t like how they look or it’s more of an emotional hurt thing where it’s like, “Wow, I didn’t realize I came across that way.”

We had a geek on Beauty and the Geek who was very kind of dominating in the house and not well-liked and people were very upset at him. And at the time he was in the house, he didn’t understand it. He’s like, “Why is everybody against me?” And then when he saw himself on television he realized, “Oh, wow. Okay, yeah. I wouldn’t like to hang out with that person either.” And thankfully for him that season, we had a reunion show and he was able to come back and tell everybody about the growth he experienced watching the show, as opposed to being on the show.

And so again, sometimes that growth and that realization happens over time and it doesn’t happen the moment you say goodbye.

Biagio: I think it is important to realize that you are going to have a different relationship with somebody who’s on what’s essentially a game show. Because I mean, in Beauty and the Geek or Scream Queens or American Idol or whatever. I mean, that’s essentially people competing for a prize and it’s a game and there’s winners and losers.

And then there’s follow docs where you really are doing a show about somebody’s life. And so naturally, you’re going to bond with people in a different way. It doesn’t mean you still can’t ultimately wish for the best for everybody who’s on your show.

But that does sort of bring me to the point that I wanted to talk about today about our cast being our family. And Wesley Branch, who was an amazing, incredible character on our show, Caged. Someone that I think is inspirational, occasionally polarizing but always entertaining, and is no different in real life than he was on the show. The guy just is that awesome.

He had an accident. He had an accident and he’s not in the best shape of his life at the moment.

Joke: Yeah, he went out on a Sunday with his dad and his son and his brother, like they have done on numerous times. They loaded up the dirt bikes and the car and they went to a friend’s land where they ride their bikes a lot. And a jump that he had made a hundred times before without incident went wrong this time. And he ended up falling on his helmet and breaking his T6 and T7 vertebrae, damaging his spine and is now paralyzed from the stomach down.

Biagio: And it’s horrible news. I mean obviously, Caged is over. We haven’t filmed with him in a few years now, but we care about our cast. And we keep in touch with our cast and we keep tabs on them. And Wesley, he’s just a great dude.

Anyways, the family and friends have set up a GoFundMe page for him which we were happy to contribute to. I will put a link to it in the show notes. If you’re listening to this podcast and you don’t have time to go to the show notes but you’d like to give a dollar to the Wesley, I’m going to put a redirect link so you can just go to ProducingUnscripted.com/Wes, that’s W-E-S, and that’ll redirect to his GoFundMe page.

And even if you have a dollar or two dollars that you’d like to give to support this great guy who’s a dad and dealing with this.

Joke: He’s like 27 now, 28? He has a four-year old son that he’s supporting. He’s a smart kid, he really is. And he just, you know. I’m speechless, yeah.

Biagio: What do you say? It leaves us speechless but we’re happy to support him and we’re telling everybody about his GoFundMe page and he’s a great guy. So if you have a dollar to spare for him, just head on over to ProducingUnscripted.com/Wes, W-E-S, that will redirect you to his page. And if you have a dollar, give a dollar. Give two bucks, whatever. Every little bit helps.

And that’s it. I do hope that you guys got a lot out of today’s podcast. I really feel like the points we covered today are extremely important because there’s nothing more important to your show than your cast. And treating your cast right, letting them understand the process, and really making sure that you work your butt off to try to leave them better than you found them or at least as good, it not only leads to good television, it leads to great relationships with people.

And I mean, honestly, the reason we do Unscripted is because we love real people, right? I mean, there’s nothing better than just meeting awesome real people from all over the world. And when you finish with the show, you want to stay in touch with those people as best you can.

So that’s it. Again, happy turkey day, tofurkey day, whatever you’re celebrating.

Joke: Enjoy your families.

Biagio: Enjoy your families. Enjoy some nice time this holiday season. And we’ll be back in two weeks with another episode. So until next time, have a good one.

Joke: You too.

Biagio: You too, babe.

Joke: You too.

Biagio: Alright.

Joke: Yeah.

Biagio: Yeah. Hey, it’s almost time for the mistletoe.

Joke: Oh my goodness.

Announcer: Producing Unscripted with Joke and Biagio.