2 Paths to Hollywood Success

Biagio: Hey, everybody. She’s joke.

Joke: He’s Biagio.

Biagio: We’re married. We make unscripted film and television and want to help you do the same.

Joke: Hopefully by teaming up with us.

Biagio: Or maybe you don’t team up with us. And I think that’s kind of what we’re talking about today, right? Is is breaking into the industry. And, you know, I think when it comes down to it, obviously this podcast is geared towards helping you figure out how to pitch your own projects and sort of take that route into industry. But but at the end of the day, you know, there’s a couple ways to get to where we are, which is essentially company owners and, you know, showrunners and people that are make shows for a living.

Joke: I think this one is really geared to the people who want to work in our business, not people who are like, oh, I have an idea. And, you know, maybe I’ll make some little cash on the side. But it’s just fun seeing my idea on television. It’s like, no, no, this is for people who really do want to work and make a living in this business.

Biagio: Yeah. So if that’s you, if you’re someone who like, like, really loves, you know, the unscripted television or just film and television in general, I think what we’re going to talk about today really applies to both now me and joke, we’re talking about this before the podcast. And I mean, I think I think you summed it up right. There’s really two ways to sort of get going, right?

Joke: I mean, listen, there’s a million ways, but there’s kind of two philosophies, right?

Biagio: Two two pathways.

Joke: Yeah. Two kind of like overarching schools of thought. Oh, sounds so smart.

Biagio: You’re very well. You are smart.

Joke: About that. But okay, so the first one is take a job in the industry at the bottom and work your way up. Right. It’s very it’s not just for our industry. It’s for any kind of business or career you want to build is get an entry level position and work your way up. And that is a very good and solid way to go. It’s one that we didn’t necessarily take.

Biagio: It’s take that opposite of what we did.

Joke: But right. But it’s one of those things that, like both schools of thoughts, have pros and cons. And that’s what we’re going to talk about. So with the take a job in the industry and work your way up the pros of that, which is, you know, things that, you know, we didn’t have and were like, oh, we really missed. That is you really do build your resume. You build a list of credits. And no matter where we want to believe it or not, at the end of the day, that list of credit, that resume is very important because it allows someone to, you know, take a risk on you. That’s not that risky, right? Because they can say, look, they’ve done all these shows, they’ve they’ve gotten all these credits. They have the experience. So working your way up shows, you know that you’re committed to this business. It shows that, you know, you understand the different roles that that get played in production. So you’re not just an outsider coming in thinking you know everything. It’s like you get the sense of not just a hierarchy, but, you know, the different skills required by the different departments. And most importantly, it gives you access to people into business. Right? Once you’re in, you get to meet, I don’t know, ten, 20, 30 people on that show. And then maybe someone there gets you the next gig and you meet ten, 20, 30 people, new people on that show. And so what this school of thought, what this pathway gives you is once you get that first in, you have now contacts and credits. And that’s, let’s be honest, is half half the job. Right. It’s like it’s who you know. And then proving that you have the experience to back it up. So that’s definitely the pros of you know taking this tactic is get an entry level job and work your way up. It’s been proven again and again that this is effective and that this works for people.

Biagio: Yeah. And by the way, you know, maybe you don’t want to sell your own shows. Maybe you want to have like a great career working on really interesting projects. You know, you know, all over Southern California or wherever it is you are. Well, this is definitely the path to take, right? Because if you want to build a career in this industry, there’s no faster way to there’s no more guaranteed way than starting at the bottom, grinding it out and working your way up. However, there are some times to it, especially if someday you’re looking to have your own projects.

Joke: So I think the biggest con of this tactic is time. When you’re working a job. Listen, production is hard. You know, it’s 12 hours on a call sheet. So with a lunch and your travel, you’re looking at 15 hour a day at least, right? And so if you’re grinding goes out day in and day out, you don’t have a ton of time to really be thinking about your own projects, to be finding characters, to be, you know, creatively awake enough to to come up with ideas. And so it’s very important, you know, what we’ve seen people do is they take this pathway and they just get burned out. They want to spend every waking moment that they’re not working. You know, blowing off steam or, you know, pursuing their hobbies or, you know, just being adventurous.

Biagio: Or just recuperating.

Joke: Or just recuperating again, like they’re just not then also working on their own projects. And that’s the hardest part. Bye bye bye. Working your way up in the business, you have a really hard full time. And by full time I mean like production, full time job. And then you kind of have to schedule as a freelancer, you usually want to jump from project to project because that’s how you keep your bills paid. But I think it’s important to schedule a few weeks in between that, you know, just take a gamble on yourself, know that you’re going to find a job in a month, but take that month then to not just recuperate, but but really work on your own projects and to get those things going because one, it keeps your creative juices alive. It keeps you focused on the end goal, which would be running your own shows or producing your own shows. And because now you have the credits and you have the contacts, you’ll have people to help you and you’ll get ways to. Then once you finish one of your projects to show it to people or to get people’s, you know, feedback and stuff. So I think this is a great path to take. I think the biggest con, again, is people losing track of their their own creative goals. So it’s just important to schedule those in because otherwise it’s too easy to be two years down the line and you’ve built a nice resume and you know a lot of people, but you haven’t done anything yourself creatively from beginning to end.

Biagio: So that’s sort of the first pathway into the entertainment industry. The second one, the path that we took and not one, it’s necessarily better. I do want to highlight that is what joke?

Joke: Well, this one is the far riskier one, right. It’s just going the independent route. And to be honest, I mean we kind of ended on this route because we didn’t know anybody in the business. Frankly, the business was so young. Reality television was just starting that. I mean, it just kind of was like, I don’t know, I guess we just do it ourselves. And so this is going independent realm, meaning you’re working outside of the industry. You’re you’re making your own projects, you’re doing your own pitch tapes or pilots or whatever it is. And so you’re learning all the jobs on set by doing it yourself. Right? It’s like the independent filmmaker route. And I don’t mean independent filmmaker with $3 million budget. I mean independent filmmaker with like a $5,000 budget, you know, so so we’re you’re literally learning everything yourself. So the pros of this is obviously, you know, you’re really building a pitch portfolio, right? Because all you’re doing is working on your own projects. So so that’s not a problem. So you have plenty of that. The con on the other hand, is the fact that you don’t necessarily have contacts right in the business. You still have to work on that. And most importantly, which is something that really did hurt us in the beginning, is that you don’t have the resume to back up your experience because you can put all your own projects on your resume. Nobody cares, and nobody’s going to believe it unless there’s like a network people believe or a show they’ve seen on television behind that. That credit doesn’t mean anything. So. So when we kind of did all this on our own, and we made so many pitch tapes and so many pilots in our ourselves and all this stuff, and then we got a chance for like our first kind of big job. We only had one credit that was legit on our resume. The rest was just our credits. And we literally sat across from the executive and pleading, being like, trust us, we know we can do this. We’ve done this ourselves, and rightfully so. They looked at us and said, you’re crazy. You haven’t done this portion. And now, having done both sides, I can tell you it is very different running your own show like yourself. Independent route versus working with a network and working with the requirements that come hand in hand with that and and learning to work within a system and the politics that go along with that. Those are all experiences that you not only observe, but you learn working your way up. You know the other school of thought in the business versus doing it the independent route. And so we got extremely lucky, you know, we got lucky in the fact that, you know, we were young, naive and we bullied as executive and were like, yes. And finally she just gave up and was like, fine, whatever.

Biagio: Well, we also had tricked Warren Littlefield. I’ll put a link to that. Yeah, not purposely, but I’ll put a link to that just again, the show that it can be so random when people do decide to hire you because they hire you because, well, a lot of reasons.

Joke: But I mean, truthfully, she gave up and was like, I don’t want to fight this anymore. I give up on this project, and if you want to take it down in flames and so be it. And that’s the only reason we got the position. Then it was up to us to deliver. And thankfully, because of all the experience we had doing it ourselves, we were able to deliver. We showed her, we proved ourselves to her and she was like, oh my God, you guys were absolutely right. You do know how to do this, but that’s something that, you know, not a lot of people get that chance. You know, all the stars have to align for that to happen. It’s not just about, you know, jumping into deep end. Someone has to say, okay, I’m going to give you the money to do that. And that puts there, you know, but on the line and it puts their career at risk. So so I think that, you know, we got lucky and we worked hard and we, you know, had to prove ourselves going this independent route. But it’s definitely the riskier one. Now another big con of going this way to be honest, is you end up having to take pay cuts. Right.

Biagio: Huge pay cuts.

Joke: And again I don’t I don’t listen. For us, it wasn’t necessarily a pay cut because we were, you know, eating ramen noodles and working, you know, cutting demo reels for, you know, ten bucks an hour or something in our living room. So but I see this for people who are, who are on the independent route now and are trying to break in, it’s like they have a full time regular job, right? And full time again in the real world is only like 40 hours. So that leaves them still plenty of time to do the independent route, but they make good money, or they’re doing similar things in the corporate world where they make good money, and then they come and they they expect those credits to transfer to the entertainment world, and they don’t. And I think that’s the hard part, is someone comes in and was like, well, I was making X amount a week. And we’re saying, well, to be frank, you need to step a few rows down on the ladder here. And so you’re only going to be making half of that. And some people are willing to do that. And they come in and then they blow us away and they’re like, oh my God, you absolutely can do this. And then they move up quickly, right? So where it might take you years to go from PA to a showrunner in the first school of thought working your way up in the business, once you’ve gone the independent round and you’ve actually really done those things and that’s on you, only you can be honest with yourself about that. Then when you do get the opportunity and maybe you have to take a few steps back and you have to take a pay cut, but then it’s up to you to prove that you can. Right? That’s what we had to do. That’s what you would have to do, is really then show everyone around you that you weren’t kidding, that you can do those things, and then you’ll move up quickly. Right now, no joke. We probably took pay cuts for the first four jobs we took and again, not pay cuts from what we were making, but pay cuts from what those jobs normally get paid into business. Right. So the way an EP or a network or anybody will take a chance on you is saying, okay, if I can save, you know, a few thousand dollars on this line item or I can save, you know, half that line item because I’m going to take a risk on you and you say you can do it, then that’s a little bit of insurance that God forbid, I have to bring somebody else in, or maybe I can hire an extra person under you with that extra money that I save to support you, in case you’re not quite ready. You know, that’s why they are asking you to do the pay cut, not so that they can put it in their pocket and go on vacation, so that they can use that money to give you better support in case you don’t work out. So. So anyway, so to sum it up, I think that, you know, the pros in the independent route is obviously you’re constantly working on your own project, so you’ll have a nicer and bigger, you know, pitch portfolio probably than when you’re busy working in the industry. That said, you know, making the switch from independent to now you’re part of the system is hard, and it’s important that you understand the risks associated with that and the struggles and to keep going and to have to keep proving yourself and knowing that you will be asked at some point to make a sacrifice to take a lower title or to take a lower rate, just so you have an opportunity to prove yourself. And again, it only takes 4 or 5 credits at that point. That’s why I said I think we did like four times. And then you have that resume and then you can say, look, I have the resume to back it up. Plus, at that point you’ve worked on four shows. You have those people to vouch for you, and now you’re you’re into the same level as the person who’s been working their way up. It’s just, you know, it’s a risk, right? It’s like you both start at the same time, and maybe you both get there about the same time. It’s just, what have you been doing in the meantime? You know, cashing your paycheck, working really hard or, you know, taking a risk and doing everything independently and spending every money you have. So I think it just takes two different personalities. I don’t think one is better than the other. It’s you’re either one personality or another.

Biagio: Yeah. In general, this is a hard business to work in. If you’re the kind of person who has a large sense of entitlement. I would say if you have a large sense of entitlement, do not go the independent route because you’re never going to get you’re never going to be happy. You know, taking that first gig where you just have to cut your rate right down. I think for us, we always knew where we wanted to end up, and so it was worth it to take the risk day after day. But again, as joke set out, it’s a personal decision.

Joke: You know? Again, I don’t think we went into it with this information. No one told us this information and said, which track do you want to take? We stumbled into the independent route because we had done a a documentary. We had the equipment and we’re like, oh, let’s just start doing this. And frankly, you know, I come from a family of entrepreneurs. You’re very entrepreneurial. So I think it just this just was in our blood. But I remember sitting down for like a UCLA extension class with like one of the Hollywood mentors and they’re saying, like, you know, none of this matters. You must have credits to back it up. No one’s going to spend money on you and me thinking like, but forget it. I have experience, that’s all that matters. You know, until I sat in front of a network executive and pleading and saying, no, no, really, we can do this. And they’re going, I can’t take that risk, you know? And so it was us, an agent, you know, in Littlefield and everybody saying, no, no, no, no, take that chance. And the executive finally saying, okay, your call. But if it doesn’t work, you know, it’s your show that doesn’t go forward. And then we were able to prove that we could do it. And we got to pick up and we got a series out of it. But again, like it, nobody told us this information. So I think we just kind of fell into it because it was the birth of reality and who we are. I think the hardest part is just being honest with yourself on who you are and what works best.

Biagio: Yeah, I mean, again, I think for me, you know, because we always wanted to put a lot of time into developing our own projects, it would have been hard to just take the full time job in the industry and work our way up. However, that’s the way to go if you want more of a sense of security. It used to be going independent route was very, very hard. If you didn’t know anybody. As those of you who’ve listened to for the podcast, long time no. Yeah. Joking myself, do pride ourselves on being fierce defenders of undiscovered talent. And I do mean talent. Like people who are actually talented and work hard and want to work in this business. And that’s why we started this blog and website. That’s why we allow people to pitch shows our way. And when we find somebody who has pitched us a terrific show and brings real skills and talents to the table, you know, we fight like heck to make sure we can help that person in their career and that we can make the show together. So if you’re among those on the second track or even the first track and you’ve got your, you know, you’ve got some great show concepts and you’ve got some terrific tape to back those concepts up. And they’re not just an idea, as we’ve talked about in so many past podcasts, but they’re based on a real person, place or thing. As you know, you can always reach out and pitch up those shows by signing up for our newsletter at producing unscripted and following the directions. But that’s it. You know, I hope that this was illuminating. I think this is something that came out of questions we’ve been asked recently. We’re like, you know, there really are pros and cons to both ways, especially into unscripted. I think that joke did a great job of breaking it down. Honey, you’re so damn smart. I married so far out of my league. But thank you all for coming back for this episode 63. For those of you who listen every two weeks. Yes, you might have noticed there was no podcast last week, right? Yeah. We’ve been we’ve been fortunate and that we’ve gotten extraordinarily busy. There’s a whole lot of stuff I’m not allowed to talk about yet, but let’s just say you’ll be seeing a lot more TV from us in the very near future. And so we were swallowed up into a black hole a few weeks back. But knock on wood going forward, we should be back in another two weeks with a podcast that is hopefully helpful for all of you. And and I really do mean it when I say I hope we get to work together soon. So for those of you developing shows, you know. Sign up for the newsletter and and send it our way. And it may take us four, six, even eight weeks to get back to you, but we will get back. Both me and joke will personally look at your show concept, and if it’s something that we feel like we can be helpful on, or we can, you know, we can help you get on the air, then we’ll team up and we’ll get it done.

Joke: Also, if you’re dying to hear about things like, we’d love to hear some topics for this podcast. So because we’re on number 63 and I didn’t think we would get past ten. So feel free to throw us some subjects.

Biagio: Yeah, yeah. If you if you head on over to Producing unscripted, there’s a contact form underneath the about menu. Just head on over to to the producer on that contact. And if you’d like to drop us a note about what you’d like to hear on the podcast, feel free. We’d be happy to answer your questions. So that’s it. We’re going to we’re going to sign out. Thank you again so much for tuning in. And until next time. My wife is way prettier than me.

Joke: Where is this coming from? All right. Bye, everybody.

Biagio: Bye bye.