Who Owns a TV Show? Can it be You?

Announcer: Welcome to Producing Unscripted with Joke and Biagio.

Angry Man: Is this some kind of joke?

Unidentified Voice: Biagio.

Biagio: Who did this episode? It’s episode 96 and we’re answering the question. Who owns a TV show? Can it be you? What does owning a TV show mean anyways? What to expect if a TV network or studio is funding your show? Alternative methods of distribution to consider. If you must retain ownership and. The day joke made me fall in love with her. She had my heart from then on. It took a long time for me to get her heart. Music courtesy Dave Pelman. Music Dave Pelman. Com. Hey, everybody. She’s joke. He’s Biagio. We’re married. We make unscripted film and television and want to help you do the same.

Joke: Hopefully by teaming up with us.

Biagio: All right. Well, welcome to episode 96. Yeah, we are, we are just. We’re just begging them out now, honey.

Joke: 96 was when we met.

Biagio: That’s right. We met in 1996. Wow. The greatest day of my life.

Joke: No. Now we’re really aging ourselves to that.

Biagio: We are. Well, that was a long time ago. We met. Oh, yeah. We’ve been together for a while. I met her on the third day of school. She said, I’m convinced the only way to make it in this business is to produce your own projects. And she had my heart from then on. It took a long time for me to get her heart. It’s not. What’s it? Quite as easy. I had no game back then, but you know. But here we are, all these years later, married, making TV and film together. So I guess it all worked out.

Joke: It all worked out.

Biagio: So so so today we want to talk about something I sort of hinted at last episode. It’s a question we get a lot, and it’s something I think that a lot of people, I would say almost everybody new to the business misunderstands. And I, and I get why people don’t understand it, because we didn’t either when we first started. And it’s a key, key question that we get from a lot of people who want to break in the unscripted television. And that question is, who owns a TV show? Who owns it? Right. Because you or us or someone out there has spent months or years developing an idea, a concept, putting together a package, and now a network is going to put it on the air. Well, who’s going to own it in the end? What does it mean to retain ownership? Well, if you own the show, then that means that after it’s aired on a network that you can take it and try to sell it around the world, or you can make, you know, party hats or books or you can make, you know, merchandise. You can you can do all those things that like a show like The Biggest Loser that has a bunch of cookbooks and all those kind of things. You know, whoever owns a show gets to sort of exploit. Yeah, they get to monetize it. They get to exploit that IP, that intellectual property. And so a lot of people who get into this business think they’re going to create a show, you know, come up with a concept and get rich. I can tell you it was a very hard conversation when we first learned all those years ago, you know, from our first agent that that’s just not how the business works. Now, I want to start out by saying, we are not here to debate the fairness of the industry or where the industry may be heading or, you know, or whether or not we agree with how everything works, because that’s a conversation for another day. What we want to tell you today is how the industry works right now, today, how people like me and joke work within the industry, and also mentioned some other alternatives you have if you don’t like the way the business works.

Joke: I also want to say this is pacifically to unscripted.

Biagio: Yes, very specifically.

Joke: Because it’s very different than scripted.

Biagio: Which is another reason for a lot of the misinformation that’s out there and a lot of the confusion, because scripted television, we all hear the stories of people getting rich and making tons of money in residuals and writers who, you know, they’re on permanent vacation for the rest of their lives. If they just reach 100 episodes of a scripted show. Unscripted is very different. And for some reasons that we’ll get into, let’s start with our business. The typical unscripted film and television business. Now, what I mean by typical is you turn on the TV and you watch a show you like on MTV or A&E or VH1 or CNN or HLN or any one of the number of networks that are out there CBS, NBC, ABC, whatever it is, where you’re watching, you know, those shows that you love, your typical standard unscripted television show, the kinds of shows people often pitch us, the kinds of shows that we make. Okay, that’s what we’re talking about.

Joke: I think the easiest way to separate it is between broadcast networks and cable networks. So the broadcast networks are ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, CW. So those are the broadcast networks. And so when you see unscripted reality shows on those networks, usually they’re produced by studios and they follow more of the scripted model where a studio owns the show and license it to a network. But because unscripted budgets are so much lower than scripted television shows in the cable world, networks themselves have started financing. So they’re no longer licensing those kinds of shows. They feel like for the license fee they would be paying, they might as well own it.

Biagio: The show is going to basically be owned by one of two entities, and most likely that will not be you or us. Those entities, if you’re on cable, will be the cable TV network who will end up owning the show. And if you’re on a broadcast network, more than likely it will be the studio, or a combination of the studio and the broad and the broadcast network that end up owning the show. The people.

Joke: Who own the content are the people who are paying for it. So the network is paying your full budget did not work, is going to want to own it. If the studio is paying your full budget and then licensing it out, hopefully to recoup most of that already from a network, the studio owns it. The point that we’re trying to make as startup independent producers, you yourself will 99% of the chance not own your show? The few exceptions that there might be are. And again, probably not walking off the street, but a well-established independent producer might be able to hold on to ownership if there are two competing networks who very much want it, which hardly ever happens anymore because there’s so many conglomerates now, all the networks are owned by pretty much, you know, three players, 3 or 4 players. And so if if you have two of those players really bidding against each other, then maybe you can retain ownership. But again, that’s, you know, the exception.

Biagio: For us. You know, before we get into these sort of alternative models and what you can do to still own your content, I’m going to say why we like working the way we do. We’re very interested in telling stories. We like the fact that we make listen, we’re not flying private jets. We’re living in Beverly Hills mansions. But we like the fact that we make a good living telling stories about real people and being able to do a wide variety of shows.

Joke: We’re happy. That doesn’t mean that we’re happy and not fighting for more, you know, like, don’t get don’t get us wrong. Like, I mean, we’re content creators. We’d like to get our fair share of the pie. And, you know, as a conglomerates try to take more and more, you know, we’re fighting back. And the producers are are working together and figuring out how we can bring, you know, a nice balance to the system, as it were. And and obviously, we’re hungry and we have a hustle and we want to tell bigger, more stories and more interesting stories or stories that maybe someone doesn’t want to fund, but we feel are necessary to be told, you know, there’s don’t get this conversation, as you know, we’re just content and laid back and all as well. You know, we have a hustle and we have a drive and there’s lots of things we still want to do. You just have to come into this business with eyes wide open as to the fights that are winnable and the wars that have been lost at the early days of reality, you know, in the early 2000, I think obviously the Mark Burnett’s of the world and some other producers like Mike flies, were able to hit on something and be able to maybe retain some ownership and, and, and have a bigger stakes in things. And that was great. And that’s, you know, the trailblazers, they get those rewards. You know for us we came about, you know, a decade or so later and for anybody entering now that’s about two decades or more later, it’s it’s a different ballgame. Right. So the networks have gotten smarter, the lawyers have gotten stricter. So, you know, there’s a there’s a push and pull in our industry for producers to still, you know, not just even retain ownership but retain creative control or, you know, there’s a lot of push and pull happening in any industry. And so there is an hour’s. But the idea that you’re going to join the unscripted world and strike it rich off of one show is highly unlikely, right?

Biagio: And so that brings us into the next area I want to talk about, because there are a lot of people who just can’t stand the idea that that essentially the way the model works is you develop a show and you spend months or years getting something together, and at the end of the day, you just get hired to work on it. I mean, because that’s what it boils down to. You develop the show and essentially you’re just getting hired to work at it. And for some people, that’s great. They’re a producer on the show. They’re telling the story they want to tell. Great. But at the end of the day, we’re just hired hands on those shows, and that’s not for everybody. So, okay, what are the options to own it yourself? The first thing I want to talk about is the hallucination time. By now, I would say more than any other option. This is what new producers almost I would say almost 1 in 5 people who pitch to us or who are who we meet at, you know, meetups or anything like that. Their idea is, oh, listen, I’ve already got sponsors, I’ve got sponsors, and what we’re going to do, we’re going to buy the time, we’re going to come in, we’re going to buy the time for the network, we’re going to make the show. We’re going to erode ourselves with all the money we’re going to raise for sponsorship. So it’s a lot harder than it sounds.

Joke: Yeah it is. And again, you know, the the people that we know that have done this because we have not done it, but the people we know that have done it tell us constantly how hard it actually is and and how your time ends up becoming very fractured, splintered, whatever you want to say in terms of being a creative and trying to tell a story. And at the same time, you are now also running that business, you know, getting sponsors, asking for money, making sure those checks come in, making sure those checks clear, making sure that that the requests are the man’s, that those people who are providing you those checks have on your content is fair. Making sure those requests are met, keeping everybody happy, talking to the network, not, you know, time by doesn’t mean that you can get whatever program you want on that channel’s air. You know that that network, that channel also has to say, okay, this fits with us, or this isn’t going to offend our audience or anything like that. So you’re literally doing everything, which is awesome and can be exhilarating and for the right personality. That’s exactly the way to go. It’s just you have to know going into it. It’s not easy. It’s it’s not something that happens very smoothly and people are super happy with all the time. So if you are okay being that much of a business person, having to deal with the business, you know and have less time to create the content, and that’s fine. It’s possible it’s been done. Someone we know who did it for 2 or 3 seasons on a show, you know, it was getting bigger and bigger sponsors every season. It’s, you know, she’s gotten good response in viewing. And so eventually she’ll be able to get hopefully to budgets that allow her to do the kind of content at the quality she wants it done right. If you have bigger budgets, she can do better quality, and if you have bigger budgets and hopefully there’s more money at the end of the day left for you. But that’s just something to keep in mind. It’s it’s a long road, it’s a hard road. And if you don’t like sales, this is not your your route.

Biagio: Yes. Very well said. And I want to touch on something else. That joke said it’s not easy just to go buy time on a network. That’s the other thing, is that a lot of people, they just they just gloss right over there. It’s like, oh, I’m already bringing sponsors. I’ll bring it in. We’ll put it right on the air. It’s a little bit it’s a little bit like thinking like, say you own a really nice house and someone just shows up at your house and it’s like, hey, I’m going to throw an awesome party at your house. I got all the sponsors, we can use your house, right? And you’ve never even met that person. You’re like, who are you? Why am I letting you in my house? What are you doing with sponsors? What are you trying to do? And it’s a little bit what it’s like to try and walk into a network where you don’t know anybody, and you’re going to walk in and say, I’m going to walk in with sponsors and put my content on your error. It’s just not that easy. And if you’re doing it on a smaller local level, like a local or regional network, that’s a little bit easier. But then you’re yeah, your budgets are way smaller and and is that you really going to be able to support yourself. And if you hit the grand slam home run, maybe you do become a multi-millionaire. It’s just a lot of slogging that’s not related to story. It’s a lot of extra work that’s not related to the story. And you have to decide if you want to do all that extra work on top of story.

Joke: And I think it’s also there is so much content out there. One of the reasons a lot of the networks are struggling is because there is so much content vying for eyeballs, so you know what networks have going for them, or at least what we working with networks try to have them do is promote your show, right? Is is how can we cut through the clutter? How can we make our audience aware the show even exists? So that’s why, you know, you go with a bigger network or the network really believes in your show. That can be very helpful if you’re doing your time by and you know that network just like, okay, well, from 9 to 10, that’s your slot, you know, how are you going to get people to tune in? You know, that’s another thing. Like what’s your marketing plan to then try and get eyes on the program that you slave to hard for that you made promises to investors and sponsors too, because they’re going to look and say, how many eyeballs actually saw my commercial in your program? So it’s just a lot. And again, for the right personality, it’s a great way to go. But it’s not everybody.

Biagio: Right? So that’s so that’s that’s a very, very difficult route. And you’re not guaranteed of success. Now another way to own your own content. And this is something that everybody is following very closely. And we can share some success stories with you from people that we know and have we worked with, you know, is to explore other digital platforms. This is everything from YouTube to there’s a new platform. We just met with someone. It’s called brisket. I’ll put a link to it, not brisket like the meat. If you go to brisket com, you’ll end up with a lot of recipes. This is a a different brisket. That looks really interesting. But but the idea here is that you figure out how to create your content, which by the way, it’s very difficult to do a 22 or 44 minute show on YouTube. It can be done, but it’s very rare. It’s very hard to do so. But what you’re basically saying is I want to be a content creator.

Joke: It’s hard to get people to watch it all.

Biagio: Well, it’s hard. It’s hard to get people to watch it all, but it’s a lot easier to make a 3 minute or 5 minute webisode than it is to make a 44 minute anything. Right? So so you’re also talking about a different kind of storytelling more, you know, probably. But if you’re going to try and own your own content and put it on one of these platforms, you know, it comes with its own pros and cons. We know two people very, very successful at this. Rosanna Pansy, who is one of our Scream Queens, has a extremely successful cooking channel on YouTube. She’s been featured in Forbes and named as one of the top YouTubers out there, and she is doing as well or better than most, you know, television producers. We know she’s doing great. Okay. Same goes for Rhett and Link, who we did IFC’s Commercial Kings with. They they are doing great on YouTube. Okay. And it’s a much better model for them than even being on IFC was far better. Okay, now it takes a lot of time to build a YouTube audience. It’s getting harder and harder to break through over there because lots of people are creating content. But the upside is that you own it, and then you also need to look at other ways to monetize that content. So for instance, let’s face it, at the end of the day, YouTube owns YouTube. Anytime YouTube wants, they can just change the way things work. They can be like, you know, change their terms of service and make everybody mad and be like, we’re not going to let you make money on advertising anymore or whatever. It’s it’s they own the platform, right? You don’t know. Then you need to look into okay, well, is there a way to create my own digital platform where I’m also hosting the content? Then you get in the hosting fees. So again, it’s a whole nother business model. And there’s way to create content and monetize it. It’s not something that we’re very interested in, but it’s something that you can find a lot of information on the web about right now. But you just have to go in eyes wide open, understanding that at a certain point, you’re not just telling stories anymore. You’re running a whole business related to putting media out there. And so you just have to decide where your passion is. For us, our passion is in storytelling. So the idea of trying the to build my own, I mean, listen, I have a hard enough time running these websites for producing unscripted and joke productions, right? So I mean, the idea of trying to build a whole, you know, online television network where we’re creating content, which we’re funding, by the way, and then trying to sell it and trying to get sponsorship, it’s not something that necessarily appeals to us, but it may appeal to you. Again, the upside is you own your content. You do what you do with it, what you want. If you want to create a bunch of merchandise and you think you can sell that, great, you have no legal issues. Why you can’t? Whereas if you’re making your television show at a network, they’re going to more than likely own all of those rights. So so again, if you if ownership is what you’re all about, there are ways to own your, your content. You just have to know if all the extra baggage that comes with it is going to make you happy. And I think that’s something that me and joke ask ourselves a lot, even on projects we take on now, is doing this show going to make us happy? Right, honey?

Joke: Yeah, it’s just time. Time is money. Time is the one limited resource, you know, that is very hard to come by. And, you know, we’ve got kids now. And, you know, we want to make projects that we want to invest our time in. You know, development is hard. You have a ton of projects on your slate. So you want to make sure you can give the right amount to each of those projects. And so, you know, when we look at a project, it’s like, okay, one, do we have time for it? Can we be helpful in it? And is this something that we’re going to have a passion for that you know, when it is late at night and you know it’s time to go to bed, but something still needs to get done that we’re going to be like, you know what? We want to do this because this project is worth it. So it’s just about managing your time and prioritizing. And, you know, we only we all have only one life to live. So everyone has to make these decisions for themselves.

Biagio: I want to say one final word to the wheelers and dealers out there who are like, this is, you know, I’m going to go, I’m going to go make it rich. And by the way, I hope you do. I hope every single one of you ends up millionaires and billionaires. And there’s there’s nothing wrong with the, with the pursuit of, of of happiness and, you know, and being successful like we 100% support anybody who wants to do that. But I think that over the years, the myth of Hollywood has confused or tricked a lot of people into thinking that there’s a gold rush out here, and it’s more of a gold trickle.

Joke: Well, I think there was, right, like Hollywood was known and you heard stories and the glory days of those, you know, people would walk into a room and they’d make a deal right there, ten episodes done, you know? And it was all it was all gravy. That’s just not the case anymore, you know, whether it’s just because the business, you know, aged up and matured and now there’s, you know, lawyers who look at things and people need to check with other people. And companies are public and they have a board of directors and stockholders to answer to. And, you know, there’s not that those stories don’t ever happen again. They’re just not as it’s not any more the way business is done. And so it’s just, you know, I would say the gold rush right now is, you know, Silicon Valley, right, where you hear people walk in with an idea and walk out with $40 million worth of funding. It’s, you know, there’s way more zeros in Silicon Valley than they’re in Hollywood right now. And, you know, when a kid with an idea for an app at 16 programs at at home and becomes a millionaire, like, obviously that is not what’s happening in Hollywood. I think also Hollywood is a collaborative medium. It’s a team medium where, you know, in the tech industry, you know, a few people with a computer might be able to make something in the digital world. So you know that there’s a lot more going on here. And the pie has to be shared with a lot more people, etc., etc.. So I think that, you know, people come to Hollywood because they at this point. Right? I think it’s less about the gold rush as it is about the quote unquote glamor of making movies, making television show, the joy of being able to tell stories and just to be able to make a living telling stories. It really is, for me, the most amazing thing I could be doing, you know, not nothing to take away from any other job. I’ve had lots of jobs. I sold knives door to door, you know, like. And I made good money doing that. It’s just, you know, there’s a there’s just some jobs you do just to make money and to come home and you build your life at home and then some jobs, you find a love and a passion in. And then that job also takes on part, an integral part of your life. And to be able to do a job that doesn’t always feel like work, that feels like fun and feels like this is amazing, that I get to do this, and I get to meet these people, and I get to be outside and and notice these things in humanity, in life, in society. That is worth it for us. That is the priceless part of this, of this industry that you can’t put a, you know, a price tag on it.

Biagio: And I couldn’t have said it better myself. You just you just touched my heart. But it’s true. That’s why we do this. So there we have it. Episode 96 in the bag. All right. Well, thank you everybody for tuning in. Once again. We’re going to be back in four weeks. We’ll be back next month. I can’t say too much about what we’re doing other than say we’re doing a lot. We’re excited about it. And, you know, like you figured out from listening to this podcast for a very long time, you tend to hear about things like a year later, year after we first mentioned them. But we have a lot of stuff going on and we can’t wait to tell you more. And so as always, thank you for tuning in. If you are one of those independent producers that are looking to pitch to a production company and would like to pitch to ours, you can learn how to do that at Producing Unscripted. Just sign up for the newsletter, follow the directions, and be sure to read the site, because there’s a lot of information on the site that will stop you from making newbie mistakes, whether you pitch to us or anyone else.

Unidentified Voice: All right, see you guys in four weeks.

Biagio: Four weeks by everybody.

Unidentified Voice: Producing Unscripted with Joke and BiagioAjo.