Unmasking a Killer with Todd Lindsey

Biagio: Hey everybody, she is joke. He’s Biagio. We’re married. We make unscripted film and television. I want to help you do the same.

Joke: Hopefully by teaming up with us.

Biagio: Well, thank you so much for joining us today for episode 103 joke. We’ve got somebody awesome here. Right.

Joke: So thrilled to be here with Todd. Lindsay.

Biagio: Hello.

Joke: Hello. Hi. Todd is a great true crime producer and brought us his passion project, a case he’d been tracking for over a decade. It’s the case of the Golden State killer who terrorized California from 76 to 86 with 51 attacks. Many, many, many sexual assaults and a dozen murders. He’s still uncaught, and our show is a five part documentary series with the hope of shaking loose that tip that might catch him together. We pitched it and sold it to CNN and HLN, and the show premieres this Sunday, March 18th, 9 p.m..

Biagio: Okay, now, before we get into our conversation today with Todd, we are so thrilled to announce the CNN has asked the two of us to host a companion podcast to the TV series. We’re really excited to share it with you. Todd’s actually one of our very first guests, and now the tone of that podcast is a little different than this one, right? Right. Joke.

Joke: Yeah. I mean, obviously the podcast is focused more on the case and the details of the case. And, you know, we do further interviews with people. And when we talk to Todd, you know, we talk about things that didn’t make it on the show. Obviously, this podcast is more about how to get shows made. Not so much the content of that show. So that’s how they differ.

Biagio: Obviously, we can’t be quite as peppy on a on a murder podcast. That would not be appropriate. Well.

Joke: We’re not always peppy. We’re just peppy on this.

Biagio: I think of you as peppy.

Joke: Todd. Do you think of me as peppy?

Biagio: I would not describe you as peppy. I was just a go getter. Passionate. Oh yeah, a lot of things before I would get to peppy.

Joke: He’s peppy.

Biagio: He is very peppy. I cannot deny.

Joke: You’re projecting your peppy onto me right now.

Biagio: Happiness.

Joke: So the show will air every Sunday at 9:00 eastern. And that midnight. So the midnight between that Sunday and Monday, the episode of the podcast is released. So there’s five hours of this series, so there’ll be five podcasts for the for the next five Sundays. And then on your Monday morning commute, you can listen to the podcast.

Biagio: I hope you guys check it out. We’ll send you if you’re on a newsletter, we’ll make sure you know when it’s happening. Now to the great stuff for today. I think we’re gonna have a fantastic conversation that’s going to really help you get your head around what it’s like to develop and produce true crime in 2018.

Joke: So, Todd, let’s start at the beginning. How did you become a producer? How did you get into this business?

Todd Lindsey: Well, the the first job I had as a producer, I got a gig has a segment producer for season two of World’s Most Amazing Videos.

Biagio: Wow.

Todd Lindsey: And that was a lot of fun. And there was a lot of research, and it was kind of where the internet was just just starting to come into its own. I believe it was just after dial up had kind of ended, just trying to remember, but.

Biagio: It was still kind of new.

Todd Lindsey: Especially to somebody who’s a little older like I am. So that’s that was the first job I got and I loved it. So from then on it was working on different shows. I got a job at entertainment and I was working for two Hollywood Story. My job was to help with footage and the right one sheets for show ideas. And the other show we had was two Hollywood Investigates, which later became investigates had always been interested in true crime since I was a kid. Loved to read about it. My mom was a big true crime reader, so I would just read the books that were in the house. I can remember reading Hollywood Babylon it like 10 or 11, which was way too young, but I started, I was really fascinated with it. And so when I had the opportunity to actually come up with ideas for investigates, I loved it. And one of the one sheets I wrote was about the original Night Stalker, now called the Golden State Killer.

Joke: And you actually ended up producing an hour show.

Todd Lindsey: With the investigator. Actually, I think it was still called True Hollywood Story Investigates, but it was the same.

Biagio: Show, and this was before the Golden State Killer moniker. This is way back.

Todd Lindsey: Way before nobody was talking about it. One of the reasons why I really wanted to do it, obviously, the breadth and scope of the case was amazing for the fact that you had never heard about it. I’ve said this to you many times, but you know, you hear you always hear about the Zodiac Killer. They’ve done films, lots of documentaries. He had five victims. And compared to our guy, he was an amateur. And I thought, God, nobody’s doing anything on this case. I think MSNBC investigates did a show about just the Southern California murders and didn’t discuss the Northern California crimes at all, and it had very little on this on the Southern California crimes, but I think was the only show that had ever looked at the case.

Biagio: So and for those who don’t know, unmasking a killer tells the tale of the Golden State killer, who’s the most prolific uncaught serial killer in California. History.

Joke: I mean, we talk about the breadth of the case. There were 51 attacks. Many of them had sexual assaults. It was particularly terrifying. He was attacking couples and women by themselves. But couples as well, in their homes. While they were sleeping at night, he’d go in and wake them up. And then when he. He was known as East Area Rapist up there, and then when things got to be too hot and police were getting closer, he ended up coming down south and started murdering, started killing his victims. So the same thing as the break ins, the sexual assaults and then the murder on top of it. And there were about ten murders in Southern California.

Todd Lindsey: And murders and then two in Sacramento. So we believe a dozen murders in all, maybe even 13. You have to watch the show to understand what that’s about. But at least a dozen murders and like Joe said, 51 attacks, 45, I believe, which resulted in actual sexual assaults. Really?

Joke: And that doesn’t count the hundreds of burglaries that he was doing to terrify and to figure out ways to get into people’s homes. He would call the victims after and taunt them on the phone, terrorize them some more. I mean, it was just never ending this, man. It was scary, scary, scary.

Todd Lindsey: All about terror. You could lock your house up like Fort Knox with this guy. He was an excellent burglar, so he already knew how to get into your house. Sometimes he would leave a window unlocked that you wouldn’t notice. And that’s how he would get in that night.

Joke: He’s still uncaught, and that’s why we’re doing the series. It’s now 40 plus years. He had a reign of terror for like ten years. There’s countless detectives in, you know, numerous jurisdictions. When I say numerous more than ten jurisdictions that are actively still working this case. And so part of us doing the series and why we’re so excited that it’s on HLN, which is, you know, news based network is the hope is that this shakes loose a tip that might finally, you know, get some closure to this case and bring some justice to these victims.

Todd Lindsey: That’s what we want.

Biagio: So such an incredibly deep, deep case. I remember when you first pitched it to us, it was like a five hour pitch or something. And we just went, I was like all day. How to for people who are listening. Because Todd has been on this case for over a decade, how do you take a case of that size and then develop it into a potential TV series? What is that process like?

Todd Lindsey: Well, obviously it was an extremely tough and complicated process. I mean, the case itself is so complicated. When I did the first show for two Hollywood Story, we did a, you know, it’s 42 minutes when you take the commercials out. So you really could only tell a basic overview of the case, which nobody had done. So it was nice to be able to do that. In this we have five hours. So we were able to get into the minutia of the case, which I really wanted to do. I wanted to talk about.

Biagio: All the details. Yeah.

Todd Lindsey: You know, I got to give a lot of credit to joke because she had a vision how this was going to be laid out from the get go. And it actually took me a little while to get my head around that, because I thought it was so complicated that you’d have to tell it in a very linear fashion so people would understand it. I was afraid if we looked at different parts of the case, that people would be confused with the entire timeline, but that was not the case.

Unidentified Voice: So yeah, when you came in, you came in with a ton of paper, right? You had done a really nice write.

Joke: Up of the case with, you know, I would say like the major milestones of it, because, again, the case is so deep that, you know, you didn’t show up with a phone book, thank God, because, I mean, because that’s what it would take to really get into the minutia. But I think you had like a 10 or 15 page right up that we kind of went through. And then from there on, I think one of the first steps, obviously, then is honing the pitch to get it ready to take to buyers. Viaggio cut an awesome. What was it? 90s sizzle.

Biagio: About 90s.

Todd Lindsey: Awesome sizzle reel.

Biagio: It was fine.

Todd Lindsey: I can tell you. You can go far if you just have a great sizzle reel.

Biagio: Yeah it was. I was pretty happy with that.

Todd Lindsey: It’s amazing the impact that had. And and you can tell like if, if your project, any project has a great sizzle reel that helps because you know, these network guys are very visual and they want to see something.

Joke: Of course. Yeah. And because it was also complicated and I think the spend a little bit extra time doing nice graphics for the sizzle so that it kind of helped, you know, lay it out not just across California but across time because it started 76 and then in 1986. So so there was a lot there. And then Todd, you and I really worked on trying to get that pitch down so that obviously we knew we weren’t going to get three hours to explain this case. So we had 90s in the tape, and then we pretty much had it down to about a good 20 minute verbal pitch, where we really explained again, some of those like big points of.

Todd Lindsey: The case and it might have been a little quicker than 20 minutes. It seemed.

Joke: By the end it definitely was.

Biagio: We had it nice and it was three of us. Plus Alexis Linkletter, who’s been on this podcast before, and it was a pretty choreographed pitch, right?

Joke: Yeah. No, it really was. I mean, we had it, you know, memorized. And then obviously there’s a ton of questions that come after it. So why don’t you kind of get the basics down? Then we started taking questions from from people. But we had some great meetings.

Biagio: We did.

Todd Lindsey: So I really enjoyed scaring some of these network.

Biagio: Executives.

Todd Lindsey: And you could see it in their face when you started telling them some of the details, that it definitely scared them. And that’s good because it is a scary story, and we want them to feel the impact of that.

Joke: With the FBI believing he’s alive, you know? And because this man was so obsessed with self-preservation, the profilers believed that he could be your neighbor. He could be your husband, he could be a coworker. That’s the stuff that really scared them.

Biagio: Exactly.

Todd Lindsey: And you might not know it unless you saw this show and you realized you need to be looking for certain details. And that’s another aspect of the show. Do you know this man either now or in your past? And if so, you need to make a phone call.

Biagio: You know, I want to ask you because you make an interesting point earlier, you know, about, you know, Joe had a certain vision for the structure that, you know, I was behind that was a little different than what you had originally thought. How hard was it to sort of let go of a little bit of the creative control and share it with us? And how how was that process for you?

Todd Lindsey: Well, I mean, joke might say that it was really hard for me, but it really wasn’t. It wasn’t that hard.

Joke: We just had like a few hard weeks.

Todd Lindsey: That’s it. Right? Just at the very beginning, the vision of the thing. And once we kind of decided on that.

Joke: We were.

Todd Lindsey: All in, we were all in and it really started rolling.

Joke: And it’s also, I mean, you had been thinking about the show for, you know, of course, a long time. So now all of a sudden we’re like, what if we do it this way and you’re like, that doesn’t that doesn’t compute.

Biagio: Clearly. Understandable.

Joke: But here’s the thing. I think what worked really well is we always listened to each other.

Todd Lindsey: And let me go on record. You were right.

Biagio: So I say that ten times a day.

Todd Lindsey: You were correct. So that’s all that matters, right?

Joke: And we were through it. We talked a lot. There was a lot of good, you know, trust that was built. Exactly. You know, and.

Todd Lindsey: I really had from working with you before, I already had that. So I think that made it a lot easier.

Joke: I also felt our passion for this. I think very early on we got very passionate about this one. Like we always stress at each other’s passion that we were going to do the right thing in the end.

Todd Lindsey: Exactly. And and that’s something I definitely wanted to mention. As I said, when I, when I pitched it to a few production companies, you can tell they were scared by it and they thought it was an interesting story, but they didn’t quite get it. You guys got it when you called me and said, come in and we want to talk about it. I was very excited. Okay, they get it. They get this. And your background in two crime, I think, helped a lot, of course, because you understand these stories and you understand how rare it is to have a story like this. I mean, there are several more than several. There are many unsolved serial killings in the United States. But, I mean, I really would challenge anybody to find one that’s like this.

Joke: And it’s also this one is solvable. We have his DNA. It is so solvable. It’s there’s not even a question about anything. You just get the person’s DNA and it’s like, and we’re done. Right. You know.

Todd Lindsey: It’s got to find the right person.

Joke: Yeah. We don’t have to prove if they were there at a certain time or, you know, do they have an alibi? It’s like we have your DNA. It’s over.

Todd Lindsey: There’s no way you’re getting out of that. So they won’t even be able to charge him, obviously, with the rapes, because the statute of limitations is up. But you’re not getting out of ten murders. I think eight of them are connected by DNA. So, yeah, he’s got a lot to answer for.

Joke: He’s got a lot to answer for, I think. So then when we went through the process, we met with all the networks. There were a few bites, but clearly there were a couple that that were kind of frontrunners here. And then one of the reasons we ended up going with HLN, CNN, is because, you know, by sheer happenstance, as we’re in this process, the FBI puts a renewed focus on this. We get word that there’s a press conference, and here it is. It’s a 40th anniversary. We’re offering a $50,000 reward on this case, the case that has had zero attention, zero publicity, zero national push all of a sudden gets the big FBI endorsement.

Biagio: Out of nowhere. Out of the show.

Todd Lindsey: Almost like I had set it up.

Joke: Almost like you set it up. But thankfully, because CNN and our news network, they immediately understood it. So they immediately were like, okay, here’s the money. Go, go get that stuff, get out there. Which is great because a lot of times with entertainment networks, you know, it’s a it’s slow business a lot of the time. So the fact that they were from news and they understood the news value to the story and they were able to move quicker, it was the perfect match. And also because obviously we’d like this to help in eventually maybe solving the case if someone sees it, that may know that may know something and calls in a tip, then yay, right? Just bringing more attention to it. And on a news network we can do that. So we were very excited to be teaming up with them. And then we went through their process. And then pretty much like you said, once we kind of figured out the structure of how the series would lay out, that worked for them, that worked for us, that felt like we got to address the many, many different layers on this. It really was kind of like, okay, now let’s roll. And we did.

Todd Lindsey: Yeah, it seemed to come together really quickly and really smoothly. You know, there were people in this case that I always wanted to talk to, and I got to talk to almost everyone. I think there was one that I didn’t get to talk to, but everybody else and their stories are just riveting. I mean, you really have to watch their interviews to really understand it, but and I think it was the right time, these people, enough time had passed where they wanted to talk about it. So and law enforcement, for the most part wanted to talk about it. Some needed a little encouragement, but pretty much they all came around and everybody spoke to us.

Biagio: About it.

Joke: Listen, this is where Todd deserves all the credit because Todd booked a show top to bottom. And when people on the case are saying things like, wow, I can’t believe you got so-and-so to sit down and talk to you because they won’t even talk to us. They haven’t talked to us in forever. That’s pretty impressive. So I think the relationships that you build with people over the years, but you know, also the way you talk to them, the way you respect them, the way they trust in you to put forth, you know, the story as accurately and as.

Todd Lindsey: Without hype and without sensationalizing. That’s exactly. Yeah. And I told them that. And that’s another thing. So there’s a lot of little intangibles that we could talk about. Again, working with Joe can be I can I have the confidence to say, I can promise you that we won’t do this and we won’t do that. If you’ll set an interview, just tell us the truth. And and I know that joke will back me up again. Man, you can make a promise when you’re trying to book a show for a bigger production company. And that can get as it goes up the ladder completely twisted. So again, it’s the confidence, that responsibility that that joke and Biagio gave me. I think that helps a lot when you talk to these people. But yeah, you have to care. And I think that comes across on the phone. I mean, making a phone call to somebody who was a sexual assault victim or their or their mother was murdered in this case, or even retired officers who spent 25 years working on this case and retired and didn’t catch the guy. And they’re they’re not happy about that. We want this to eventually catch the guy that somebody will watch this and make that phone call. So I think all of that kind of came through and that’s why they were willing to cooperate. You know, we didn’t want to make any mistakes. We wanted it to be has accurate and authentic as we possibly could make it. And and I think that’s what we did.

Biagio: You know, we’ve been working on this together now for I think more than two years. Right. It’s been yeah. Yeah. It’s been a while over the course of that. Did you learn anything new or different about the TV industry, the business and maybe how it’s changing or was anything different than you expected?

Todd Lindsey: Well, the pitch meetings were really educational. I had done that at me and other places where I had pitched to that network to, you know. But I see those guys every week. Yeah. Going around to pitch to Netflix and CNN and some of the other places we went to was eye opening. And it’s fun to see how different networks operate and how they approach pitches and who they have. They’re listening. And CNN was very educational. We would have a couple people the other first time we pitched it, and then they asked us back and the room would double, you know, and then they asked us back and then somebody would be on screen from New York.

Joke: That’s another thing where I have to give it to CNN, because usually what happens is you go into the room and, and you pitch, and then from then on you’re, you’re out and they pitch it up internally. And I remember our executive calling me and saying, listen, send me everything you got because I want to do a good job pitching this to my bosses. And I said, I will come back. We will all come back. Just get your bosses into the room and, you know, listen, kudos to them. They did. Which a lot of times the bosses don’t want don’t want the pitch meetings. They just want their underlings to pitch it to them.

Todd Lindsey: But there’s.

Joke: No way they would.

Todd Lindsey: They would have pitched it as well as we did. There’s just no way.

Biagio: It’s too deep and you needed you there. I mean, you’ve got ten years. You’re like a walking encyclopedia of this case.

Todd Lindsey: And Joe Catus, you know, we this is the part Todd’s going to talk about. This is part of jokes. Going to talk about this part Alexis going to talk about then Biagio I thought it just went like a well-oiled machine. And as we pitched it, we got better and better. That’s why I was saying, I don’t think it was. I think we got it down to below 20 minutes by the time.

Joke: Yeah. I think the hardest pitch was when we were like to the top, top, top at CNN that were, you know, video conferencing in from New York, which pitching over video conference is just the pits. I mean.

Biagio: No.

Joke: Fun, no fun at all because you don’t know where they listening or they’re not listening, I think I think she’s looking at her phone. Did I lose her? Oh, God. Is this good? Is this bad? And yet you’re still like, I got to keep talking. I look at my executive that’s here in LA, and she’s like, giving me the nod like, yep. Keep going. So we’re just going. And lo and behold, you know, when we finished eight, she had some great questions and it apparently went really well.

Biagio: She was listening. Yeah.

Joke: So you never know. You know, it’s so far away. It’s such a wide shot. They’re sitting far away. You know, they’re probably looking at us on a wide shot sitting far away. So she probably has a hard time even knowing.

Biagio: You do it. Yeah. And it’s also I mean, this is Amy. And tell us this is like, super high up. Like, she was probably literally. And I’m not kidding, literally texting Anderson Cooper while she was talking to us. I mean, she’s because she oversees so.

Joke: Much on her talent.

Biagio: Yeah, all the honor.

Todd Lindsey: I had no idea who that was or would have been nervous.

Biagio: That’s good. All right. Todd so we’ve been up close and personal for for years now. You know us pretty well. A lot of people listening to this podcast listen because they’re wondering, you know, if they want to pitch a show to us, what would you tell a new producer who’s thinking about pitching to us?

Todd Lindsey: Well, I would say do it. Like I said, Joe can. Biagio are extremely trustworthy and extremely competent. So I would have no fear. Definitely pitch it. And whatever feedback you get from them, I would take that to heart. Again. I just mentioned I pitched my show several times before I got to joke, and Biagio and I adjusted it when I thought there was need to. So definitely, definitely don’t be afraid to pitch it to joke productions and definitely listen to what you guys have to say to them. Any advice?

Biagio: Well, thank you so much for trusting us with your ten year passion project. No pressure, by the way. I was like, oh my God, if we mess this up, Todd’s gonna be crushed.

Joke: There are many times at you and I were looking like, we just can’t mess this up just for Todd.

Biagio: We can’t see. It has to be perfect for.

Todd Lindsey: That dedication. You don’t. You’re not going to get that at a at other companies. Trust me on that. I’ve been working in this field enough. I can definitely tell you that you will not get the same dedication that you will hear. So and I have another I’ll have another project for you guys in ten years.

Biagio: Great. Man. Well, hopefully we’ll be. We’ll just be hiring you much sooner than that. Well, thank you so much for being here. Thank you. As a reminder, because I know we said it in the beginning, but I want to repeat it March 18th, Sunday, 9 p.m..

Todd Lindsey: And it’s every Sunday for five Sundays in.

Biagio: A row, every Sunday for five Sundays in a row. And after every episode, the midnight of that evening. A new companion podcast hosted by Joe King, myself Will will go live on iTunes and many of the podcast outlets. We hope you’ll all tune in. Sunday, March 18th, 9 p.m.. Thanks so much for for listening, Todd.

Joke: Thanks for being here. Thanks for helping us. Thanks for letting us take your passion project. Thanks for being the Todd that you are.

Todd Lindsey: Thank you guys so much. This would not have happened without you.

Joke: Oh thank you.

Announcer: Producing Unscripted with Joke and Biagio.