Amazing Career Advice From Legendary Producer Jon Kroll

Announcer: Welcome to Producing Unscripted with Joke and Biagio.

Angry Man: Is this some kind of joke?

Unidentified Voice: Biagio.

Biagio: Who did this episode? It’s episode 108, and we’re sitting down with legendary producer Jon Kroll, who’s made some of the biggest reality TV shows of all time. John shares what makes a great reality TV character must haves for anything you pitch things not to do to break into Hollywood. His new show, Pink Collar Crimes with Marcia Clark, plush jokes. Favorite reality TV line of all time?

Joke: Well, if he believes that some village just lost their idiot.

Biagio: Music courtesy Dave Pelman. Music. Dave. Hey, everybody. She’s Joke Biagio. We’re married. We make unscripted film and television and want to help you do the same.

Joke: Hopefully by teaming up with us.

Biagio: Well, we are so excited to be here today with one of the very, very first people we ever met when we broke into industry, in fact, someone we took a class from years and years ago. Jon Kroll, legendary unscripted producer and I do mean legendary.

Joke: You might know him from shows way back when as America’s greatest pets, but more importantly, the big Grandaddy shows like Big Brother, Amazing Race, Amish in the city.

Biagio: Oh, those shows, just the biggest ones of all time.

Joke: Exactly. And then not to forget his very latest and greatest airing Saturdays on CBS. Pink collar crimes. Welcome, John.

Jon Kroll: Well, thanks, Joe. It’s great to be here.

Biagio: It’s great to have you.

Joke: I keep trying to remember the year, but it is a long time ago. It was early 2000. UCLA extension class. Brady Connell was teaching. I think he was called directing in reality television. And you came in for a guest class or hour and told us all about the the secrets of Big Brother.

Jon Kroll: That was an interesting time because I hadn’t started teaching at USC. I’ve been teaching there now for 12 years. So I went across across town to the rivals and taught at a class there.

Joke: We’re Bruins, so. So that worked well.

Jon Kroll: There’s nothing I can do about that to help you, but you’ve done pretty well for Bruins. I will say that.

Biagio: So.

Joke: So you were kind of like guest lecturing and learning and then got, like a really important job not just at USC, but at the master’s program to start producing program where you teach reality television.

Jon Kroll: Yeah, I was in the stark producing program, which originally was just film, but a lot of the graduates went into television after the fact. So Larry Turman, the legendary producer, he really is a legend of The Graduate and many other films who runs the program called together the alumni who had worked in television. And I was the only one who had worked in both scripted and unscripted. So they asked me to teach the first class, and now it’s grown to a point where every semester in the class there is a television class, and I still teach there, but I just teach the reality stuff now.

Joke: That’s awesome. What do you love about teaching that class?

Jon Kroll: The students are so bright. This program is highly competitive and so only 24 get in every year. And they’re really talented about half hour international every year. So you learn about how their TV business is working because frequently they are professionals who have worked there, who have come back to school in the US to sort of turn it up a notch. But it’s been a really rewarding experience, and I get a lot more out of it than the students get. I think even though I try and give them as much as I can.

Joke: In a producing program that’s not just television but film. Do they feel like, oh, I have to go take this reality TV class? Or do you get more enthusiasm than that?

Jon Kroll: I can tell you with certainty that every year there might be one student with an interest in unscripted television, and a lot of times they just have misunderstandings about it. The R word, I call it reality, which people associate with soaps and sort of shows where there’s lots of bitch slapping going on. And we all know that there’s lots of other forms of it. So I like that you use unscripted for your show. There’s usually maybe one person as a viewer who’s interested but never would think of doing it, and there’s always 4 or 5 by the end of my class who tell me, we have a new appreciation for this. We want to explore this, but I make it seem pretty appetizing because it is. Well, the scripted world is where hopes and dreams go to die, and unscripted television is where if you’ve got the right asset attached to your project, then you can run with it and you can have a producing role in it right from the start. And one of the things I really love about your podcast, which I am a fan of, is that you prophesies a lot of the same things that I do and make people understand. No one wants to take a meeting with you and hear about an idea that you think is original, because probably it’s been heard 100 times. I’m repeating you your own podcast, right?

Biagio: It’s great. Constant reinforcement, believe me.

Jon Kroll: But but it’s. But if you have a human being attached to it, every human being is unique, and there is no greater way to make sure that you have something that is unique and also make sure it’s sellable than you have a human being attached. So we speak the same language with that.

Joke: Yeah, it’s about assets, whether it’s a great character or access to a world or a certain IP that hasn’t been explored.

Biagio: Well, it’s how you make yourself valuable to the project, especially if you’re new. If you’re new to the industry, you don’t. It’s not like you can stand on your resume, but if you walk in with access in talent, who’s on board and agrees to work with you, that changes the game, right?

Jon Kroll: Yeah, I’m out with two pictures right now. One has a member of law enforcement at the center of it, and the other is someone in the fashion world. And these are both tried and true that have been produced in a number of forms. And anytime you’ve seen something produced, there’s a thousand more pitches that didn’t get produced. But these two people are so unique that both are getting not good, a fair amount of traction. And hopefully we’ll get orders because the personalities are so unique.

Joke: So that brings me to a question that everyone always asks is like, how do you know you have a great character?

Jon Kroll: A lot of people who are selling themselves to star in a show aren’t as good as they think they are, and a lot of people who don’t see a lot of sizzle tapes sink. They have something where they don’t. The bar is really, really high and getting higher every day. So the way that you find out is you consult with someone like you guys, which is great, that you’ve opened the door to outside pitches so much at your company, and you find out from someone who sees a lot more of these than you do. Whether this is a transcendent character or just an ordinary one.

Joke: You worked with one of the great reality TV characters in my book, doctor Will.

Biagio: Doctor Will. Her favorite reality TV character of all time.

Joke: Did you know right from the start that you had gold with him?

Jon Kroll: Yeah. Will Kirby, the evil doctor will was was great for the beginning, and I’m really proud of the fact that I worked very directly with him, both in terms of his Diary Room sessions to bring out the puppet master component, and even overseeing the cutting of those segments where he was kind of fiddling these people around in different ways. He’s an amazing character. He’s a great guy, and we have stayed in touch to this day. And in fact, we’ve even developed and pitch shows together, believe it or not.

Joke: Right. That’s amazing.

Biagio: So that was on Big Brother for people who might have not. Big brother two. Big brother two. Yeah.

Joke: And so one of my favorite lines of all time, which I literally replayed five times, was probably yours. Then there’s a scene where he’s like, you know, telling someone, yeah, I got your back. You know, one of the big guys. And then he goes into Diary Cam and he’s like, well, if he believes that some village just lost their idiot. And I was like.

Biagio: I.

Unidentified Voice: Love it.

Jon Kroll: He’s he’s amazing. One of his other ones was was half man half amazing while he was flexing his muscles. Yeah. Yeah he’s a great character. And you know, it’s settled. But by the way, there’s an interesting lesson there. I mean, he went on to work on doctor 9020 and those kinds of things. But people that are at that level who are that good, it’s very difficult to then get another show out of them. So a lot of people go on reality shows thinking that they’ll get lots of ongoing fame. And obviously a show like The Bachelor where people keep coming back, that’s one thing. And you’re in that kind of nation. Exactly. But it’s, it’s it’s really, really tough for them to break out. Although I did give one of the cast members of American Grit my last Fox show, a small role in Pink Color Crimes, in one of the reenactments. And and he’s been pursuing acting, and it was great to be able to get him in there. And he’s I mean, he was a big personality. I thought he’d be great for it. So sometimes it’s fun to be able to do that kind of thing.

Joke: Yeah. So what do you look for then in a character?

Jon Kroll: It’s tricky because you think you want to look at people that you would like to spend lots of time with because you think, if this goes, I’m going to have to live with this person. But the truth is, those aren’t people that are typically going to break out, people that are charming and entertaining, but then drive you crazy sometimes typically end up being the best ones.

Joke: Yeah.

Biagio: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s so true. I mean, I’ve always found that the very best characters are usually the hardest to work with. That’s why they’re good characters. They’re pretty. They got their own way of doing things.

Jon Kroll: Well, there’s a different side of that, which is a little more frustrating, which is sometimes you have people who are trying to control the process too much or who shut down. And during casting, they’ll always say things like, well, are you going to make me look like a bitch? Or you can make me look like a, you know, a jerk or whatever? And I just say, we’re going to make you look like who you are, and we’re going to cut out the boring parts. And you may not like all the parts that we use, and you may wish we used more parts about you going on and on, about the charity work you’re doing and, you know, in developing nations, but no one cares of our viewers. So we’re going to show your fights, your romances, your strategizing, your hookups, your I mean, those are the things that we’re going to show. And if you don’t want to buy into that, you should not be in the show because we’re going to ask you about that stuff. We’re not going to ask you an interview about your charity work. We’re going to ask you about the the things that we want to tell stories about. And so you try. I’ve gotten better at weeding those people out during the casting process, but people always slip through who think they can control it or who think they can kind of like withhold things from you and you just have to cut through that. It’s it’s part of the job. It was easy. Everyone would do it.

Biagio: That’s right.

Joke: There’s like three different type of characters. Right. So you have like the contestants, the contestant character, like on the Big Brothers and Amazing ways. And those are those always end up coming, becoming some kind of caricature. Right? Like because you have 20 characters to service and all of that stuff, and then you have your docu series, people who you’re following in their life. And so that feels more intrusive to them because you’re actually in their everyday life telling stories there. And then you have kind of have your host characters, you know, like your law enforcement type people like, you know, you’re making the hero of your story. So I think oftentimes people who are like, I want to do this and maybe they, you know, they’re just going to host a show, but they’re afraid of, you know, the docu series type, or so I think. As a producer, a lot of times it’s about explaining what they’re actually signing up for.

Jon Kroll: Yeah. And I think that if you establish trust and honesty from the beginning, and part of that honesty is we’re not going to tell you everything and you just got to roll with it, okay. We want to make a great show and we want to show that when you see it, you you know you like it too. But you know, you just have to trust us because if you don’t, there’s no reason for you being here. But, I mean, there’s also sort of I mean, all of these are different models of different kinds of characters that you need when you’re dealing with a competition show. Obviously, you want to have it look like a Benetton commercial and have everyone be really distinctive because you don’t want people to look at it and saying, I can’t tell those three blonds apart. So that’s really important. Amazing race has so many people that you just have to brand them. There’s no such thing as individuals on it. It’s the clowns, it’s the Harlem Globetrotters, it’s the nuns. It’s, you know, whatever it is. I don’t know if they’ve ever been nuns, but.

Unidentified Voice: But.

Jon Kroll: There should be. The other side of that is when you have kind of these shows with teams of people that people develop, and a lot of your listeners maybe doing one of these, where it’s a team of people that swoop in to help people with a dog problem or whatever it might be, some kind of angel show. I always think that it’s good to think of it like it’s the Avengers. Okay, the Avengers, you never confuse Iron Man for Captain America, so you have to give them each a superpower and make them each distinctive. So it may be that two different people, if you’re doing a dog show, are good at dealing with aggression with the dog, but you want to just brand one of your people as the one who deals with aggression. You know, this is just one example, but you can see how this could apply to a lot of things. And so that everyone says, oh, that’s the guy who deals with aggression. Oh, that’s the person who deals with food problems. And the viewers can start to tell the characters apart, not just by what they look like and their names, worst of all, because no one remembers them but what they actually do.

Biagio: Yeah. And also in the beginning, when you’re pitching executives, they’ll ask you, like, I don’t get it, I don’t get who’s who, who’s who’s the clown, who’s the what. If it’s not clear in the tape, you’re dead in the water anyway. So it’s really important to do that up front.

Jon Kroll: Yeah. With it like it’s sometimes it’s easier than other times with the fashion show that I’m pitching right now, it’s clearly there is a photographer and there is a stylist and there’s a makeup artist, and it’s who those people are as very distinctive in a law enforcement show. There’s a bunch of law enforcement people. They have different titles, but no one knows what those are. So it’s more important to say, you know, this is the young buck, this is the troublemaker. This is the this is the favorite child, you know, that kind of thing.

Joke: Totally what it must haves in a pitch before you take something out. What do you feel like? You must.

Jon Kroll: Have another offer. That’s. No, it’s I think it’s different for different structured types of shows. But what I mean, I think the number one thing is amazing tape. Okay. And that can be a rip tape, a partial rip tape or all original footage. And I’ve done all those things. Obviously all original footage ones can get expensive. My models show she lives in another country, so I had to set up a shoot in another country to do that. But she had so much other great material that I knew that if I spent the money on that one shoot, I would have gold. So great tape is first and foremost, I like a to do a solid leave behind. I mean, to me that’s not as important as the tape, but almost as much. I reluctantly have started doing them in PowerPoint after years of trying to do them with a little more artistry, and in were in other programs, but PowerPoints just such an easy way to put them together. But and for that I think you need a show summary a intro to the world. If it’s a different world than people might be familiar with. And then I think whether it’s characters, if there are real characters in it or sample characters, if it’s a competition show and I’ve gotten a lot more into style and having style pages and style guides for shows even before they’re made, and you have to know enough about the technology to know what works for it. But for Pink Color Crimes, we did a really elaborate style guide because we were trying to do a show that was sort of like part The Jinx, part Desperate Housewives, part I, Tonya. And so we in order to present what we wanted to do, we did a hard mound book that we gave to everyone at CBS where it said, okay, we’re going to do lip sync dialog. That’s like in Drunk History, you can see how this is. So you can see that we’re going to be doing this. Tell us if you don’t want this to us to do this, we’re going to experiment with breaking the fourth wall. That was something that we tried and they didn’t like as much. We stopped doing it. We’re going to do interviews center frame, director, camera, and we’re going to shoot them from multiple angles like wormwood, so we can cut to those. And we’re going to play interviews on camera a lot in the show, because we think hearing from the individuals is fascinating. Anyway, I’m going over a style guide. But for this show it was we felt it was a really important part to say this is our blueprint for this. And part of that is because Pink Color Crimes is an anthology show. Every episode is 100% different. So having a common style, having Marcia Clark do her pieces, and everyone having a very strong and distinctive graphic and music approach to it, is a way of making it at all. If you like one series, even if every episode is different.

Joke: Did you have Marcia already there with the pitch?

Jon Kroll: The Marcia story is actually a really interesting one. I’ve known Marcia for more than ten years. We did a pilot together years ago and we remain friends, and she’s one of the most entertaining and fun people I know. She’s just smart and charming and just just a blast to hang out with, but usually she’s called in to do this super hardcore investigative stuff like her terrific show first 48 Martial Arts Investigates. And I said, I’m developing this new show with my partner Sharon Lee’s called Pink Color Crimes. As soon as I called her about it, she said, I mean, I totally want to do it. It’s great. And she’s just been a blast and supportive. She supports the show on social media. She’s just been so fun to work with, and I think she adds a lot of credibility to a show that is kind of twisted and wacky and off center at times.

Joke: Question that we get a lot is, you know, what do I need to do to break in? What do we need to do to break in? But but what do you think is the number one? Don’t.

Jon Kroll: Oh, wow. There’s a lot more of those than dos. No one knows what not to do. But everyone knows where it’ll get you torpedoed. I have a pretty sensitive bullshit barometer, and when people try to present themselves as more than they are, I don’t think they realize how transparent it is. So especially for people who are not part of the industry, but trying to get in. Those of us who work in it every day can instantly tell that you’ve watched a lot of TV but haven’t made any. So I think be who you are. I mean, I will always get into business with novices if they have an expertise in an area that I want to know more about it, and they can be the expert in that for this show. But when people try to, you know, have more control than that or say, I want to give notes on cuts and things like that, I said, I wish we have guys for that. Okay. It’s like that. Those job is taken. Guys is a is a is a neutral, gender neutral term. And by the way, you’ve been in my office. It’s 90% girls anyway usually because that’s the true crime world. Exactly. Yeah. I just think generally being an asshole, nobody wants to work with assholes. Remember what I said about talent? How you you sometimes have to work with people who aren’t people you want to hang out with. In terms of talent, you don’t have to work with anybody you don’t want to work with in terms of developing shows or making shows. Those people, my shows have a no asshole policy and those people are gone very quickly. So I think just playing well with others and getting along. I also think work ethic is something people look to. If I’m developing something with someone or talking to them about developing things, and it takes them a month to get me the new draft, then that’s suspect. And if it takes them an hour, they’re not putting enough work into it. So even if it takes you an hour, wait three days before you send it, that’s the that’s the key. And then I just think lack of understanding of the marketplace, if you come in pitching something without finding out basic things that two Google clicks could find out for you. You’re lazy and you have no business in this business. If you’re going to do things like that, you have to know every other. You can’t know every show that’s ever been pitched, but at least know every show that’s ever been made. And I have issues with my students with this sometimes where they will pitch something that’s just like another show made two years ago. And I said, did you try clicking some different words and combinations about this to see if this show was made? Like, that’s really a big one. His understanding the the marketplace, you’re, you’re, you’re in and it’s not a matter of, oh something like this was done. I can’t do it. It’s being prepared to defend your show and why it’s different and why it will work when this one maybe didn’t. And the last thing is, don’t ever sell a wish fulfillment show, because Extreme Makeover Home Edition did so well. Okay, that was a long time ago. It wasn’t doing so well at the end, and almost every other wish fulfillment show that has gone on since then has been a disaster. I’ll tell you just a silly story about because I’ve worked in the scripted world as well. I ran New Line TV for four years, both scripted and unscripted, and my attorney deals with a lot of scripted people and sends me his scripted clients who have ideas for things. He calls me up and he says, I have a scripted client who has a show that will make the world a better place and make everyone feel better about themselves. And I said, pass. And he said, really? You don’t even want to meet.

Unidentified Voice: With her?

Jon Kroll: And I said, no, because if that’s how they’re trying to sell the show, if that’s their greatest asset, those are negatives. Those are things that will scare networks off. So if you want to come at me again and never say those words again, that’s fine. It’s not that I want to make horrible shows that make the world a horrible place and lead to the downfall of civilization, but that can’t be your hook because unfortunately, people do not watch TV for those reasons. And that has been proven time and time again. They need conflict. They need drama. It could be positive. Still, it can be educational still, but it can’t be boring. And people helping people makes everyone feel crappy about themselves because they’re not helping more people. And though you know, the homeless makeover show has been pitched a lot of times.

Biagio: A lot of times.

Jon Kroll: And all, it seems as exploitive.

Unidentified Voice: Yeah, yeah.

Joke: I would say Undercover Boss did a decent job at laying on a lot of like, do gooder, and we’ll show the thing in the world in an entertaining way because it had the hook.

Jon Kroll: Yeah, it’s definitely an undercover Boss is definitely an outlier and a very well done one. And the danger that it’s playing with is Undercover Boss is a hoax show. You know, you could have people who are really, really upset, and probably they have at times had people who were upset. And it’s produced. We. Exactly. But but it’s done so well and it has does a great job of leading to the greater good, but doing it in a way that’s kind of naughty and embarrassing because it leads to people saying things in front of their boss that they would never say. And I think that’s why people watch that. So they’ve found a key to that formula. But I promise you, Undercover Boss was not pitched as we’re going to do a show that makes the world a better place. It makes everyone feel better about themselves.

Biagio: Definitely not.

Joke: So now that you’ve broken into the business or you’ve gotten your first show set up, what’s the advice to, like? Actually turn it into a career.

Jon Kroll: I broke into this business a long time ago. Joke. I don’t know what you’re talking. Oh, you mean for the people?

Unidentified Voice: The people at home? I was listening.

Joke: There’s a lot of, you know, expectations, right? So it’s like I saw my first show. Sell your first show. I’m going to make $1 million. And you’re like.

Biagio: That’s not really.

Joke: At what point does it, you know, what did they have to do? Because it’s like you said, I know someone or I have this asset, I have this person that means something. So now I have my name attached to this show. How can I parlay this now into a career in television?

Jon Kroll: It is a great question and I have the answer for you. Yes. Okay. So what happens is that first deal is not going to be for very much money unless you guys are worse business people than I am when I’m making business deals with people on the outside, you know, you’re going to get basically walk away money, you’re going to get money, you know, a royalty for the show, essentially, but your expertise is really not needed. It maybe needed as a consultant or a little bit. You may provide some ongoing guidance. So you have to use the fact that you’re not making any money to keep working at your regular job so you can make a living, but the energy that you have towards the television business while this show is being developed and made, hopefully, is you have to keep your development slate going. So what I tell my students, and what I would tell your listeners who are starting in their careers like this, is make a development slate, and on your development slate, you have your production company or just your name job, Low Productions or whatever it is, and then you have your projects. So it’s very exciting. You have your project you’re doing with Joke Productions. You put that at the top under shows in production or shows in development, and then below that you have a much longer section called Shows and Development. And these can be a combination of assets. You are negotiating for the rights with ideas that you want to do a show about. You know, maybe you want to do an auto shop that’s populated entirely by little people. I don’t know if that exists, but if you could find that that might sell to TLC or some other network. So I think that you need to start that development slate and keep it going, because developer parish is very much our motto. The time for heavy development is always when you’re in production and when you have something going, because if that actually comes out and comes on the air, people will be able to take meet. We’ll want to take meetings with you because you’re someone who has a show on the air. So I just think it’s that constant need to develop that is crucial in the screenwriting world. The worst screenwriters are the ones that spent ten years writing and rewriting one script, and then they try and put it out there and they just wait for something to happen. Like generally it’s your like 10th or 20th script that sells, so you throw away those other ones, you don’t try and recycle those. And while you’re out peddling that one script, you’re right. You’re continuing to write. Writers write, producers produce. If you’re a producer, you should be doing more development.

Biagio: Heck yes.

Jon Kroll: Sorry, long, long answer.

Unidentified Voice: But no.

Biagio: It’s a great it’s a great answer. I think it’s just it’s so good to have you on someone who’s who’s again, who we looked up to coming into the industry, you know, sort of echoing and adding to the things we’ve been trying to tell people over the years. So hopefully now they know we’re not just a couple crackpots.

Jon Kroll: Well, you are a couple of crackpots.

Unidentified Voice: So that’s what I love about you. But you.

Jon Kroll: Are very successful ones. And no, I think.

Unidentified Voice: Look, I just crackpot.

Jon Kroll: I don’t think I have said anything to you that is even disputable in any way, shape or form. I challenge any of your listeners to say, I think this one thing that John Krull said was bullshit, and here’s why. And if they put that on your response in your feedback, you’ll let me know about it and I will respond to it.

Unidentified Voice: Excellent.

Joke: Sounds good. Well, tell us about this week’s episode of Pink Color Crime.

Unidentified Voice: Oh, yeah. Okay.

Jon Kroll: So Pink Color Crimes has been hearing for a few weeks now, and it’s we’ve been having a blast with it.

Unidentified Voice: And you just.

Biagio: Got some accolades, right?

Jon Kroll: We we just got a write up in Entertainment Weekly, which was kind of nice, where they said that it was a stylish docu series, which was very satisfying because I already told you how much we paid attention to style.

Unidentified Voice: Yeah.

Jon Kroll: We have a really fun episode that I think embodies the entire concept, which is a stay at home mom in Phoenix who did a counterfeit coupon empire and ended up publishing $40 million worth of counterfeit coupons and starting a website that basically was private website where people could go to buy these high value coupons. And it was like very fight club like. First rule of Coupon Club is you don’t talk about Coupon.

Unidentified Voice: Club.

Jon Kroll: And the story is told from the point of view of the young female detective at the Phoenix Police Department who took on this case and got teased about it, like, oh, you’re the coupon lady and everything. And then she and her sergeant supervisor, Sarah Field and Dave Lake solved this case, and it culminates with a simultaneous Swat raid at two different locations at the same time as they bring down the stash house where they were shipping the coupons and the house of the perpetrator. So it’s it’s a really fun episode. There’s guns, there’s danger, there’s coupons. It’s pretty fun.

Unidentified Voice: Yeah.

Joke: That sounds amazing. That knew there was 40 million.

Unidentified Voice: That’s so cool.

Jon Kroll: Yeah, that’s called the Queen of coupons. And I have to tease the following week because the following week are two women who fought for control of the high stakes, devil may care, highly lucrative horse drawn carriage business in the Kansas City town Plaza, and that culminates in a murder for hire plot.

Unidentified Voice: Wow, that is incredible.

Jon Kroll: Our show doesn’t have any violent crimes, but a murder for hire plot. If it’s not executed, it’s not violent. So we we made the exception to that case, but it’s kind of nice. The law enforcement’s been very cooperative because we’ve worked with the FBI, the ATF, the IRS on different cases. They love the fact that we’re tackling these financial crimes and things that don’t get as much press.

Joke: Yeah. No. It’s great. I saw The Wolf of Wall Street one, which.

Jon Kroll: Was the she wolf.

Joke: She Wolf? Yes. The sheriff of Wall Street. So fun.

Jon Kroll: So it’s funny, when we were that show was found by Alexis Linklater, who works with you guys a lot, and she brought it in and I said, there’s a great title for this one. What do you call a female wolf? It’s like a wolf or something like that, right? And she says, I think it’s a She-Wolf. I said, yeah, she wolf. It’s a she wolf of Wall Street. And so she kept teasing me, saying, I sure you want to call the Wolf’s.

Biagio: That’s awesome.

Joke: That’s awesome.

Biagio: Well thank you. Thank you so.

Joke: Much with us.

Biagio: This has been amazing for everybody listening. When we’ll write up a blog post that goes along with this, you’d be able to find it. This is episode 108. You’ll be able to find it at Producing Unscripted for 108. And I’m throwing back to you, what do you want? What do you want to end with? What do you want to say?

Jon Kroll: Well, I just I think what’s great about your podcast is it really provides crucial information for people who want to get into business. It’s what I do on the educational side and a kind of a different way. And I always try to answer people’s questions when they send them my way. I encourage you to do the same. Don’t send out, oh, this is another big don’t don’t ever send out an unsolicited pitch and say, please read this pitch. It goes instantly into the trash. That’s true. That’s another big don’t. But I’m pretty easy to find on social media. My Twitter is at hippie kid, hippie kid. And if you if you toss me a question, I will always try to to reply.

Biagio: Fantastic and hippie kid, we’re at Joke and Biagio. I’m not even sure if we got to follow you. I don’t even know. I don’t even know if we’re following each other. So at Hippie Kid, I’m there.

Jon Kroll: Hippie cat in the Instagram is John John Krol.

Biagio: All right?

Jon Kroll: That’s right. F is not my middle nephew. That’s another story.

Biagio: That’s a story for another day. All right. That was awesome.

Joke: Well thanks again.

Jon Kroll: This is fun. Let’s do it again some time.

Announcer: Absolutely. Thank you so much. All right. Producing Unscripted with Joke and Biagio.