Hiring in Hollywood: The Flipside

Announcer: Welcome to Producing Unscripted with Joke and Biagio.

Angry Man: Is this some kind of joke?

Joke: Biagio.

Biagio: Who did this episode? It’s episode 123, and we’re talking about hiring in Hollywood. Whether you’re looking to hire or looking for a job, we’ve got tips and advice from both sides of the table. The things you really need to think about, the right way to use references as an employer or job seeker. Yes, there is a wrong way, and we throw caution to the wind and go to extreme lengths to bring you today’s episode. Jokes, driving and I’m swinging an iPhone back and forth. Woohoo! Music courtesy Dave Pelman. Music Dave Pelman. Hey everybody. She is joke.

Joke: He’s Biagio.

Biagio: We’re married. We make unscripted film and television and want to help you do the same.

Joke: Hopefully by teaming up with us.

Biagio: All right, well, today we’re bringing you a truly mobile podcast recording. We are on our way to set jokes, driving, and I’m swinging an iPhone back and forth.

Joke: Woo!

Biagio: You might hear some navigation noises in the background, like turn left in one mile or something. I tried to turn it off, but if it pops up I apologize. So we still can’t tell you what show we’re working on, but I think by our next podcast episode, people will know, right?

Joke: Well, I just read the press release that’s going to go out soon. So yeah, I guess so.

Biagio: So soon. So you’ll know when we’re allowed to say, but it should be in the next month. That said, being on the way to set, there’s a lot of people working there. And guess what? We had to hire all of them in our quest to make 2020 about bigger picture things in the entertainment industry, we want to talk today about hiring from our point of view. Whether you have to hire someone for your independent film or your project, or you’re in a supervising position and you have to hire people, or you’re out there interviewing for jobs, we hope that this episode will give you tips that you can use. Now, there’s a lot that goes into hiring and not all of it as a parent. So we went to this podcast to be useful to you. If you find yourself in a position where you have to hire someone, or if you’re on a job interview and wondering what production company owners like ourselves value and how we work through the hiring process. Okay, so the first thing we want to talk about finding the right fit. Now this is the most important part of the process as well as the hardest part. You know, it’s important right from the beginning when you’re trying to hire someone into a position that you are completely honest about everything that the job entails from day one. And not only that you’re honest, but that you are communicating clearly and effectively. Because no matter how hard you try, there will be people who misunderstand what would be expected of them when they get hired. If you don’t properly describe every single thing that the job entails, you’re setting yourself up for big trouble. And it’s not just enough to include that in the job. Notice in the interview you really got to talk people through what job entails.

Joke: Yeah, I think it’s also important. You know, a lot of us work in the freelance industry. And so sometimes you hire someone for ten weeks or 20 weeks. So if I’m trying to get a job for ten weeks, you know, what do I care if it’s the best match? I just get a paycheck for ten weeks. But if you’re the one doing the hiring, it is important that it’s the right fit. And because your show depends on it, your project depends on it. So I think, you know, not saying that people will come in and, you know, lie, although some might I think it’s just more important for you to really set, as you said, be honest about the expectations that are set for that position and see if it’s the right fit.

Biagio: Yeah. And listen, another part of this if like us, you’re a smaller company, you have to be careful about hiring people who’ve only worked at very big companies. A lot of people coming from a big corporate company are used to the anonymity of bureaucracy. Right. It’s it’s easy to pass the buck or let other people carry their weight. And that’s not everybody. There’s a lot of really hard workers at big companies do, but the place where people tend to fail upward is sort of these bigger corporate structures where nobody’s really sure who did what. And that’s more common than you might think. The fact is, some people thrive on the responsibility that comes from working at a smaller company where there’s no place to hide, and other people are perfectly happy, you know, not being in the spotlight at a company where there’s a lot of people and they blend in. So you have to find someone that works in your structure. All right. Now that brings us to the next part of the hiring process, which again, makes it so difficult. Not all companies view positions the same way. So what a supervising producer does at one company can be far less or different than what another company expects, and credits can be really hard to decipher. So again, it’s crucial when you interview someone, you grill them about every single thing their job entailed and clearly detail what’s expected on your project at your company. Do not assume that because someone has 20 story producer credits at 1 or 2 companies, they have the right experience for your position. And if you’re the one doing the interviewing, if you find yourself on the other side of the table, really try to understand what the person hiring you is looking for. Really. Listen, there’s a lot of times we’ll tell people this job entails this and it seems like it doesn’t register or they’re getting it, you know, let people know you hear them, let them know that you that you’re interested in doing the job.

Joke: I think oftentimes when people interview for a job and I get it, I’ve done interviews for a job, it becomes about wanting to get the job and sometimes not knowing if that is the right job for you to get at that point. And I get it. You know, this is assuming that there’s lots of jobs out there and there’s lots of opportunities and maybe, you know, you’re dying for a job and any job will do. So I’m really talking about best case scenario, you’re out there, you’re looking at different positions. It’s like asked a question in the job that’s going to make you happiest the longest. Because honestly, as someone doing the hiring, that’s what I want. I want someone who knows who they are and what they are looking for in a job. And then if I can provide that for them, great. That’s an awesome match. And if it’s not going to work, then it’s not going to work and it’s never going to work. So I think Biagio is right, obviously with the story producer position or supervising producer, you know, it means different things to different companies. But a simple credit as editor, we have found, also means different things to different people. Now, every editor would like to think of themselves as someone who can take a pile of footage and turn it into the most well crafted piece of television you’ve ever seen. But the truth of the matter is, if some people are better at building story, some people are better at finishing, some people are better at finding music than others. Some people are better at kind of, you know, making things work, finding the things, as opposed to just following scripts given to them by story producers or other producers. So I think it’s one if you’re coming up for a job, I always appreciate someone being very honest about them. And again, even if an editor tells me, look, I’m more of a builder, great, I need builders, right? Like it’s not. That doesn’t mean I can give you a job, but I’m not then going to set you up to fail by putting you as the finishing editor. And if someone’s like, look, I’m really great at finishing, but I also really like to, like, build something from scratch. It’s like, all right, we’ll find, you know, maybe we’ll give one whole episode to you and then have you help finish the other episode. So I think it’s about finding the right match.

Biagio: So complicating this even further credit lists and honestly, most resumes practically useless over and over again. You see a great resume and it turns out the person is a horrible fit for you. For some reason, some people lie on their resumes, which is, you know, we’ve actually seen that first hand a few times when someone called us for a reference about a position someone said they had worked out with us, when in fact they hadn’t. And some people’s resumes don’t live a clear representation of what the job entailed.

Joke: I think also a great example of that is, you know, let’s not to go back to editors, but let’s go back to editors. It’ll say the bachelor editor, right? And you’re like, wow, okay, well, they do some amazing stuff in that show. But then when you actually look at the episodes of the editors on The Bachelor, there’s like 12 per episode. So you have no idea if this is the person who legit, like, put that episode together and made it shine and found the gold and had the comedic timing to, like, make that scene fantastic. Or if this was someone who, you know, was kind of building, you know, who then had five more editors touch touch it after, you know, we’ve had it on our shows where we’ve had builders, you know, who helped build an episode and then are finishing it. A really finishes it up and they both get credit on the episode. Right. So, you know, unless someone calls me and goes, hey, who really finished that episode? Or what kind of editor is this person? Their resume isn’t going to tell the next person they hire what their experience was on my show.

Biagio: Yeah, and that’s why if you are the person being interviewed and you’re sending out your resume, try to be extremely clear about exactly what you did. If you if you were a finishing editor, if you’re great at cutting trailers, if you’re you’re great at, you know, telling story, whatever it is, make sure you highlight that very specifically. It’ll only help you because it’ll make us go okay. They understand that this position could entail a lot of things, and this is what they’re bringing to the position. Now, what a resume probably can tell you is if someone is likely a poor fit for you or your production.

Joke: If I’m looking for another editor on the crime show, and the only thing you have is comedy or a competition reality, it doesn’t tell me that you can do crime or that one even understand what it entails to do a crime show. It just tells me you’ve edited a lot and I don’t. I hate putting people in boxes. People try to put us in boxes all the time as we were coming up. And so I’m not saying you don’t have the skills to do it, but it does tell me that you have not done it yet, which makes it a bigger risk. It may mean that you actually start doing it and go, oh, I don’t like this as much at all as I thought I would. Also oh, there really is way more to it than I thought. And so even though in the interview you’re like, I love crime shows, I watch crime shows all the time. I’ve never edited one. But like, yeah, you have to understand that for us, it’s not that I want to put you in a box and not take a risk is that you have to understand it is a risk. So then the question becomes like, okay, what can mitigate that risk if you’re great in the interview, if you’ve got great references, if there’s lots of other wonderful stuff, if you can break it down, you say like, yes, but look, I did all the drama moments in the competition reality shows. You know, they would always come to me for like, how can I really stretch this drama out and, and create tension? You know, I’m the one that has the best understanding of the tension. Cue music library. Those are all things that I go, okay. Those are helpful skills. But if your resume doesn’t tell me you’ve done crime, you have to then understand that, like that’s a risk and you have to figure out ways to mitigate that risk for me to hire you in that position.

Biagio: Yeah. And we’re talking a lot about editors. Clearly there’s a lot of positions. You know, I think this goes just as well for interviews. It’s so important if someone has ever only interviewed really wild people on a competition reality show, and you need them to sit down with someone whose family member was murdered on a crime show, you know, those are two very different skill sets.

Joke: And let me tell you, I know some competition interview producers, and if they’re listening, they know who they are, who I would trust 100% to talk to a victim’s family. There are crime producers that I rely on on the regular to go and interview victims families that I would never put on my Cup Series, you know? So there are two different sets of skills, and it doesn’t mean that you can’t have both. It’s just, you know, as someone hiring, you know, if it’s not apparent that they already have that skill set as part of their repertoire, it is just a bigger risk, right?

Biagio: And speaking of risk and mitigating risk, the next point we really want to hit is you have to get references, but you can’t rely on them. Unfortunately, references can be as notoriously unreliable as resumes themselves, but you have to get the references and you have to do your best to get more than one reference and anyone you hire, which isn’t always easy, but you have to try. Because, look, someone might want to give you a good reference because you know they’re friends with the person. They might have no idea if the person can actually do the job, but they feel like they’re doing them a favor. The flip side of that is maybe somebody really doesn’t like someone, so they take the opportunity to give you a poor review. That’s maybe unfair. That’s why it’s important to get more than one reference and to look at the aggregate, you know, what are people telling you over and over again?

Joke: I’ve given a lot of references and I’ve called for a lot of references. I would say in the giving of the reference, there is a law that I can’t really say anything negative about someone. So usually if someone calls about someone that didn’t work out, I’ll just say, look, they worked from this day to stay and this was their job. And that’s pretty much everybody knows in the business. If I call for a reference and someone goes back, yep, they worked here from this date to this date, you’re like, okay, that didn’t end well. You know, they can’t get into the details of why I didn’t end well. And maybe we wouldn’t have these issues because maybe it was personality conflicts or whatever, but they can’t say and I don’t know. So in terms of calling for references, if that’s what I’m getting back, then I know, I know. Okay, maybe maybe not. And it’s a tiny red flag. If you get back a glowing reference, it often then becomes like, okay, who is this person? And so the the most valuable references are from people that we know that have worked with us, that know how we work, that know our personality, that know what kind of environment we like to to foster at work. And if they’re like, yeah, this person will be a great fit for you, then that goes a lot further than you know. Here’s anonymous, you know, Joe Smith who’s worked with this person. And they’re like, yeah, no, I love them because I don’t know how Joe likes to work. And Joe might like to work differently than Joke and Biagio do. So I think it’s also important to check references that are not listed as references. If I ask someone for references, I’m going to assume those people are going to say nice things, because otherwise maybe you shouldn’t give them as a reference, but I will, you know, we will check your credit list and go, oh, do I know anyone who worked on that show? Do I know anyone who worked on that show? And see, you know what? We can find out?

Biagio: Yeah. And sometimes what a person doesn’t list on their resume is almost more telling than what they do list. For instance, if they’re listed on a lot of shows on IMDb that aren’t on their resume, why aren’t those shows on their resume? That’s probably a good production to try to get a hold of, to get a reference, and it may be a perfectly rational reason that they didn’t list the job. But you know, when you see that discrepancy, you got to look into it.

Joke: I know all this sounds like really weird and crazy, and we keep talking about risk. Let’s just explain, like, we have very limited time and very limited budget to put together a great show that hopefully will get picked up and get another season going. And because a lot of times these are quote unquote short term gigs where it’s like, you know, ten weeks, 15 weeks, 20 weeks, whatever. I can’t just take a risk where like, I bring someone in and in five weeks in they don’t work out. It’s it’s scary because now it’s like, okay, do I put up with them for five more weeks, or do I bring somebody completely new in who’s probably going to need two weeks to get up and going, and is that going to cost me more? So the reason that we really do focus this hard on hiring correctly is because it does have big repercussions. Not only we want everyone to have a good time and and you know, look, it’s work and we want everyone to work hard. But it’s like, you know, it’s also we’re not curing cancer here. Like, you know, let’s I’m not sending people up in space like, you know, let’s, you know, enjoy our work atmosphere. But if the job isn’t getting done right, everybody suffers. And so it’s as bosses, it’s our it’s our job to put together a good team where everybody can gel and personalities can work together.

Biagio: One last thought about references before we move on to the next point. If you are the person submitting your resume, if you’re the person going in for the interview, for heaven’s sakes, make sure you don’t list any references on your resume that you haven’t cleared with the people. First, I’m going to tell you a little anecdote about this. There was a PA who worked in one of our shows, and the production manager of that show, unbeknownst to them, were listed as a reference on that resume. Well, every single time someone called that production manager about that particular PA, they got a very not so glowing review. And finally, when the production manager realized that he must be listing them because he kept getting the calls, she called the PA and said, hey, look, you probably don’t want to listen me as a reference. Now, if he had just asked ahead of time if I can list you as a reference, I know this person. They would have been very honest and said, you probably don’t want to do that, so please don’t list. References. On your resume without really knowing it’s okay with the person and that you’re going to get a solid review. So moving on to our next point. One of the hardest parts about hiring, and one of the hardest parts about trying to advance your career. We’re always trying to pay someone what they deserve. Of course, that’s based on a lot of things like experience, the amount of responsibility they’ll be taking on. And not everybody values a position the same way. When we were coming up, we saw companies who would constantly give people a bigger credit, but no more money, or they would even give them less money in exchange for a bigger credit, which we think is kind of bogus. It’s not how we run our company. Our belief is that if you’re being promoted to your first time in a new position, you should make at least a little more than what you were paid previously, but not necessarily as much as someone who’s done that position. 4 or 5 years experience is worth something, and it’s sometimes it’s hard to find that balance. The flip side of that is somebody maybe has ten years of experience in a position, and we just can’t afford their rate, and maybe we really want to hire them. And we honestly say, listen, we really like you. We honestly don’t have your rate. If you can do it for this much, that’d be great. But if you can’t, we understand. And that’s so important to have that dialog, because you don’t want people to feel like you’re trying to undercut them or pay them less than they they deserve. On the other hand, you have a budget you have to stick to.

Joke: Look, I have never felt insulted or upset if someone said, hey, you know, unfortunately, this isn’t the job for me. Like, you know, when we offer, look, I’ve been disappointed, but I’ve never been, like, upset about it. You know, if I really like someone, I’m offering them a job. Obviously, the goal is for them to take it. If they’re like, look, with all due respect, I just don’t. I can’t work for that rate or I want longer this or less that. I get it. Like, I totally get it. I’d much rather you be honest and not take the job right then and there, and give me the opportunity to hire someone who would really want that opportunity, then to take the job and then be miserable during the entire run of it, or quit halfway through, or, you know, take the job in two weeks later, say, oh, I have a better opportunity, which is also happened to us. And that is far more destructive to us building a relationship. Right? If you tell me this isn’t the one for me, usually it’s about money, you know, keep me in mind if you get a bigger budget or keep me in mind if it’s a longer gig show or honestly keep me in mind if I don’t have to travel. Some people don’t want to travel anymore, you know? So. So I much prefer people being honest and turning a job down at the beginning, then taking it when they know it’s not the right fit.

Biagio: Yeah, 100%. And the last, the very last point I want to talk about and to be completely honest, it’s something that both joke and I need to be better at because it’s hard is is a piece of advice we got that we have found to be really true. Higher, slowly. Fire quickly. That’s not always possible. And it’s never easy. But if you hire too quickly, a lot of times it’s going to bite you in the butt and not firing someone who either can’t do the job or is ruining morale on set. You know, that means your entire production suffers, so it’s important to move on as quickly as possible. And if you’re the person who’s interviewed for the job and you took it and you can just tell you’re a horrible fit and it’s not working out, just be honest. You’re much better off going to the people who hired you and be like, you know what? I’m so sorry. I felt like I could do this job. It just not for me. And I think you’d be better off finding somebody else. That will be appreciated.

Joke: With one caveat. Don’t just quit on the spot.

Biagio: Yeah. Give notice.

Joke: Just be like, hey, look, I just want you to know I’m going to keep this going for as long as you want me to. But I don’t feel like this is working for me. You know, it’s two weeks, enough time for you to find somebody else. I’m going to keep working hard, and I’m going to keep doing my best. But, you know, I just don’t see how I’m going to be able to help you long term or even before you get to that point. I really appreciate people coming to us going. Am I doing everything you want me to do? Am I doing it a level you want me to do, especially if you don’t feel like you are. Especially if you don’t feel like it’s the right fit. Be like, look, I don’t know. I just don’t feel good at the end of the day that I. That I fit in or that I did a good enough job and we might be able to put those fears to rest and be like, no, we love it. You’re doing great. Sorry we didn’t say it sooner. Or we might be like, yeah, I don’t know. For whatever reason, this project isn’t the right fit. Let’s both start looking for the things.

Biagio: You please, please, I know it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s probably not popular to say, hey, think about your bosses, but if you’re trying to build a career, you know, you do want to have a good reputation. And just willy nilly quitting out of the blue can really mess up a production, right?

Joke: Because if someone calls me for a reference or they know me, or you’re applying for a job with someone, I know, I mean, but I might be able to say, like, look, it wasn’t the right fit. You know, they stuck around, they did what they could. We really tried to work it out. I would hire them again on a different show under different circumstances, as opposed to, nope. They abruptly left that day. And I tell you, anyone who’s hiring is like, that sounds like a worst case scenario.

Unidentified Voice: So there you go. So as you can.

Biagio: See, the whole hiring process is kind of complicated.

Joke: Can I add one more thing?

Biagio: You can add as many things as you want.

Joke: Okay. I think the biggest thing that people need to get to is that the getting a job or the hiring of someone to, to take a job, that’s a relationship. It’s a work relationship, it’s a business relationship. But every relationship comes down to trust. And if you’re very open and honest in your interview, and that goes from both sides, the person doing the hiring and the person who’s looking at taking the job, you give that relationship the best chance, right? But just like with any relationship, you can Facebook stock a potential date and you can go through their Tinder profile and their social media and everything else. At the end of the day, it’s not until you’re actually dating what it or not, you know it’s the right fit and they might look great on paper and they might be great even on a first date, but it’s not until you get into it. And so that’s the hardest part about hiring into Freelance World is we know with every hire it’s a bit of a risk and we won’t know until we’re in it. And because it’s sometimes hard to fire and I hate that word, I guess we’ll just say breaking up the relationship because sometimes it’s hard to break up. Breaking up is hard, especially in business, when it’s like, you know, there’s like three weeks left on the gig, like, am I really going to fire you when there’s three weeks left? Like it just by the time I have someone else in, like, you know, so it’s important for everybody to be open and honest and not just with the other person, but also with themselves. Like, is this a good fit for me? Do I am I really enjoying this? And sometimes it’s like, look, it’s freelance, there’s only three weeks left. Maybe this isn’t the right fit. Just buckle up and get it done and do the best that you can. And you know that’s also a part of it. But yeah, anyway, it’s a relationship. We want it to work as people who are hiring you. We want it to work probably more than you even want it to work out. So I wouldn’t ever feel like, oh my God, this is so scary. And to hiring and my boss is just looking to get rid of me and and all this stuff. And the expectations are so high and I’m never going to succeed like we always want it to work out. Our lives are easier if the person we hire for a job works out. So it literally that’s what it’s coming down to. It’s just we want it to work out. And that’s why the hiring process might feel a little bit more intense. But man, when you’ve got the job, trust me when I tell you every one of your bosses wants this to work out.

Biagio: True that. So anyways, we are now.

Unidentified Voice: At set.

Biagio: Nice driving honey. Wait wait wait to do this podcast while you were handling the wheel there. So listen, as always, thanks for tuning in. If you are an independent producer and you’re looking to pitch projects, I think you all know by this time. Part of the reason we do this podcast is to meet other talented people. We have a submission portal where you can submit concepts to our company, and you can learn all about that by signing up for the newsletter and following the instructions. And the newsletter can be found at Producing Unscripted. Com so that’s it. We will be back next month when we can finally tell you what we’re on set for today. And until then, thanks so much for listening.

Joke: To to.

Biagio: To to.

Joke: Lou.

Announcer: Producing Unscripted with Joke and Biagio.