Choosing An Entertainment Attorney

Biagio: Hey everybody, she is joke. He’s Biagio. We’re married. We make unscripted film and television and want to help you do the same.

Joke: Hopefully by teaming up with us.

Biagio: All right. This is a lo fi, no frills episode being recorded straight from the trenches, because we are in the middle of production and post-production on several projects. As many of you know. So no fancy music this week. No crazy over-the-top yagi a voiceover telling you what it’s all about. I’m just going to tell you what today’s episode is about. It’s about choosing an entertainment attorney, something several of you have asked us about. And some of the things we’re going to cover is how to find an entertainment attorney, what to look for in an entertainment attorney. You know how to choose one who’s a good match for you. We’ll cover a little bit about what you might expect to pay an entertainment attorney. You know what an entertainment attorney can help you with and what they can’t. And you know, and just good traits of entertainment, attorneys in general. And this is something that I think is very important to some of you, and not nearly as important to some of you as you might think. So let’s, let’s but it should be. But it should be. So let’s start from the top joke. Why don’t you launch into some of your thoughts on entertainment attorneys?

Joke: I think that for the longest time we did not have an entertainment attorney and we were fine. So I think a lot of times people first starting out feel like they needed an entertainment attorney right away. And the truth of the matter is that most of these deals are pretty standard, so that as long as you’re dealing with a reputable company, you can probably just figure it out on your own. That said, it’s always good to get professional eyes to look at something. So, and sometimes some companies don’t take unsolicited submissions without the reference of an agent or an entertainment attorney. So especially in scripted getting an entertainment attorney to maybe submit something you know, could be helpful for you. However, before we get into that, I would highly advise to not just get an entertainment attorney who’s going to do blind submissions. I think especially in scripted, it’s important to build a relationship with the production company ahead of time anyway, so that before you pitch them, before you anything to them, even by telling them that your fans of their work, or that you might have an idea that might be right for them, just finding it in somewhere and then being able to say, listen, I know you guys don’t take unsolicited materials. If I had my entertainment attorney send it, would you take a look? Because I have to tell you, unless that production company has a relationship with that entertainment attorney, they’re going to treat it just like an unsolicited submission.

Biagio: Yeah. And I think that that’s one place where a lot of people waste a lot of money and, you know, and potentially go wrong is they’re like, well, listen, I can’t get an agent, I can’t get a production company to pay attention to me. Maybe if I just hire a lawyer and get them to submit my idea, because, you know, most production companies will take a submission from a lawyer how much attention they pay as a different story. People will often spend money on an entertainment attorney, and I don’t necessarily think that’s the best way to go unless, like Joe said, you know for a fact that you either have a relationship with someone at a production company who saying, hey, have your lawyer submit to, you know, a lawyer, you know, an entertainment attorney can take you directly to a production company that they’re that they know, or a studio movie at a movie studio or TV studio, whatever that you need to know that entertainment attorney has that relationship before you pay them to do submissions on your behalf.

Joke: So so that’s in terms of using entertainment attorney for submission. So but let’s just talk about entertainment attorneys in general. So there’s there’s lots of them. There’s lots of people who call themselves entertainment attorneys. And then there’s those who actually really are. The entertainment also has a lot of very different aspects to it. So while, you know, entertainment attorneys kind of this big broad thing, it’s important that you find an entertainment attorney who gets your business. So for example, you know, we’ve had people who had, you know, entertainment attorneys. It really just mainly dealt in scripted and had never seen an unscripted deal before, even though this is, you know, we’re in the unscripted business, so or an entertainment attorney might really just be focused in music and may not really know much about TV deals. Again, not saying that they couldn’t make their way kind of through it and they couldn’t, you know, have colleagues within their own law firm even that specialize in that. I think it’s just really important that when you pick an entertainment attorney that you that you fully understand their quote unquote list of credits, that you understand the business that they’re used to working in, because. Ideally, you have an attorney who is used to doing the kind of deals you’re doing, but also is used to working with the people you want to be working with because they might have clients, or they might know what there is to get on the table, you know, versus if they never know. Right. I hope that makes sense.

Biagio: Yeah. I mean, I mean, listen, basically what joke is saying is like some attorneys will come in and ask for the moon and stars and never be able to get any of it because they don’t understand the business. Other entertainment attorneys will come in and they’ll kind of know, oh, listen, these production companies or these networks are amenable to these kinds of deals. I’ll make sure I ask for those things. And that’s a win win for everybody, because they’re asking for something that they’re never going to get. Rather, they’re asking for something that they know is possible that you might not know as possible. That’s why you choose the right entertainment attorney for you.

Joke: And by the way, we have walked away from deals because people have come in with entertainment attorneys that, you know, were not even remotely like it seemed like part of our planet, you know, and it’s it’s it’s one of those things that really leads us to the next stage. For me, in terms of finding an entertainment attorney is you need to find someone that is on your page in terms of kind of negotiating, right, because there are different kinds of negotiators and not all negotiation is equal. So in our opinion, we always feel like, you know, the best deal is one that leaves us and the other party kind of like, oh, okay, I almost got everything I wanted, as opposed to us feeling like we got everything in the kitchen sink, which will always leave the other party feeling like they got robbed somehow, right? And vice versa. We don’t ever want to feel like we got robbed on a deal because it does affect your business relationship. So whether that’s us with the network and our deal making with the network, we don’t want the network to feel like they’ve given us everything in the kitchen sink. Because not only does that put insane amount of pressure on the project, but it from their perspective, they’re already going into now this business relationship from a possible negative standpoint. So we want to feel like, you know, we got a fair deal. We got a good deal. We got maybe an improvement on our last deal, but we don’t want to feel like the network, you know, might might be upset about the deal because it’s not a good deal for them and vice versa. And the same thing goes with people who would want to pitch. So it’s important, you know, what kind of negotiator you are. Maybe you are the kind of person who wants to take everything in the kitchen sink on every deal. Then you got to make sure that’s the kind of attorney you get. However, if you are not that kind of person, make sure that your attorney understands that and they don’t go out on your behalf asking for everything in the kitchen sink.

Biagio: Yeah. I mean, listen to me again. My personal philosophy, like I’m a big believer that that we’re going to that we are successful and we’re going to continue to be successful. So I don’t feel like we need to ask for the moon and stars on every single deal, because to me, it’s one deal of many. And the quicker the deal gets done, the faster we can all move on. I find that the people who are the craziest, most awful, horrible negotiators and want everything, it usually comes from a place of fear or lack of faith in themselves. You know, they feel like this is their one big deal, and if they screw it up, there’s never going to be another one. Ashley, I don’t want to work with those people anyway, whether it’s a lawyer or an agent or a manager negotiating on their behalf. And honestly, there are certain agents and managers and lawyers we just won’t deal with their clients anymore because they’re pains in the butt to deal with. And life is too short, you know? So, I mean, it’s one thing to think about is how strong and crazy. Do you want your lawyer really anybody representing you, you know, to be on your behalf? And, you know, listen, we’re again, we come from the school of thought, like we want a fair deal that we feel good about, and the other people don’t feel like we rape them. And I think that usually goes both ways. So that comes that comes into choosing an entertainment attorney who’s a good match for you. Now, what about I mean, listen, when people are starting out or when they’re established, there’s different ways that you pay entertainment attorneys. Correct.

Joke: Right. So there’s really two ways. Right. There is the fee base, whether that’s hourly or project that you negotiate specifically with an entertainment attorney or there is a commission based. And so if you start out, it probably will be some kind of fee based rate that you negotiate. And honestly does vary depending on what you think you’re going to need. Are they just going to read it over once and give you their insight and you’re going to do to negotiating, or if they have to do to negotiating, or if they have to try and advocate for you in terms of getting your submission looked at, etc., etc. once you’re at a certain level where you need them a lot and you’re bringing in business, you’re making money at what they’re handling for you. In this business, you can sometimes go to a commission based entertainment attorney, which is usually about 5%.

Biagio: Yeah. Most production companies, like ourselves and other savage production companies are big time writers or big time directors. They are on a commission basis, and we’re lucky enough to have been on that for a while. But you’re not going to start out that way, you know, and generally getting to you’ll get to that once you have a little bit of success.

Joke: Yeah. And it also depends on, you know, the amount of deals you’re doing right. If you’re a writer and maybe you have one project a year that you get negotiated, you know, and I don’t know, maybe you make a ton of money, then maybe commission isn’t right for you. You have to figure that out. You know, as a production company or most producers who are constantly dealing with deals and they’re constantly talking their attorney, then a commission based system makes sense. So, you know, again, it’s for you to figure out at the different stages you are in your career about, you know, what is beneficial for you and the attorney.

Biagio: Yeah. And I want to take a second now to talk a little bit about, you know, what an attainment entertainment attorney really can help you with and what they can’t. And what I mean is by what they can’t. If you’ve listened to this podcast for any length of time, you already know you can’t protect an idea. Ideas are worthless, right? It’s not the idea, it’s the execution of the idea. It’s why Wife Swap and Trading spouses were on TV at the same time. It’s why those of you who listened to our early podcast know all about our mentor who went around all over town pitching survivors set in the business world, which then Mark Burnett. So later with Donald Trump and it was called The Apprentice. It’s because ideas in and of themselves are meaningless. So please don’t waste your money on an attorney trying to protect your idea you’ve written down on paper. Okay, now what can an attorney be good for? Well, let’s say, for instance, you’re doing something we advocate, which is that you’ve met a really interesting person or business and you want to attach them to you. You could write up an agree. You can have an attorney right up an agreement between the two of you so that you could go out and have the right to pitch them around. Honestly, that’s something you could probably also do without an attorney, but that’s something that you might want to use an attorney for, especially if it’s a really big organization or business. Other things that attorneys can help you with. Once a production company is interested in your idea, for instance, that you pitch an idea to us and we love it. We’re going to offer you a deal, and you might want to have an entertainment attorney look that deal over, that’s a fine time to have an entertainment attorney look at your deal. Again. The thing to remember about lawyers and joke will tell you this. Of course, it’s great to have a lawyer to protect you. The other thing you have to remember is that lawyers are really slow. Everything slows down with lawyers, right? Joke?

Joke: Yes. And I love our lawyers. But it’s just, you know, it’s just what happens. I think that used to looking at minutia and they also have a ton of clients. And so there’s a lot of things that have to happen. And you know, lawyers also deal with, you know, possible lawsuits and stuff like that. And when you know, those things happen or cease and desist or threats or whatever, you know, obviously that takes precedence. So, you know, the idea of negotiating a simple deal just falls to the back burner. You know, it’s just it’s just the nature of their job.

Biagio: So you have to decide, okay. Yes. This is something that maybe I want to have a lawyer work, you know, look at. But do I really want to wait another three months, five months, however long it’s going to take for my lawyer to get back to me and go back and forth? Or do I just want to say, you know what this deal is about? Trust. I trust the other party. They trust me. Let’s go forward in good faith. I can read the deal. I can see what it’s about. Let’s do this thing. I can tell you that we’ve done both. You know, there’s plenty of times where we’ve moved ahead on deals, much to our lawyers chagrin, because we just we didn’t feel like waiting around forever. And the train was moving and we’re like, we’re doing this. There’s other times where we felt it was important to consult our lawyer. You know, you just have to you just have to decide what’s more important for you at a at a given time. I will tell you that when we were where many of you are and we were pitching to production companies, that when we would get production company interest, we found fairly early on that if our lawyers took too long, that interest would. Wayne now being a production company, we know it’s because the market changes so fast. If we’re interested in an idea, somebody pitches us right now, it’s because we know a network is looking for that. If a lawyer takes 2 to 3, four months to settle the deal, usually by that time the networks aren’t looking for that anymore because someone’s already sold it to them. So the train has passed you by. So you just, you know, you just have to decide. And it’s not an easy decision. It’s a very personal decision. It’s one you have to make for yourself. But you have to know when you really want to take the time to go to a lawyer. And when you want to, you know, when you feel that you can trust your own instinct to move ahead with the deal. Not an easy decision, but it’s one you got to feel out, you know, a very personal one way. It’s inside for yourself. I do think when it comes to traits of entertainment attorneys, you know, I think it’s important for you to feel like you can talk to them. I think it’s important for the for you to feel like they listen to you and understand your concerns. And personally, I think it’s important that they’re not complete and total sharks. That’s just my that’s my thing. I don’t want our lawyer to rape a network or rape another producer, just make things so difficult that people never want to work with us again. Because believe me, that’s the reality of the world. No matter what area of entertainment you’re working in, if your managers and your lawyers and your, you know, your, your, your agents or whoever, if they’re if they negotiate too hard on your behalf, people are going to decide you’re just too much of a pain in the butt to work with. It’s just something to keep in mind.

Joke: Yeah, it also depends on if you have six people bidding for it, then you know that changes the negotiating position that you’re in. We’re really talking about if it’s on a one on one situation that you just, you know, you want to make the deal with somebody, then that’s it, right? If if you don’t even know if this is a person you really want to work with, or you have five other people who are interested in, then, you know, negotiate away, obviously. But if this is like, hey, I really want to get in business with this person, you know, same thing with us, right? If we really want to get in business with a certain network, you know, we’re going to be more amenable to certain things, you know? But if we have four different networks interested in the same show, you know, obviously we’re going to tell our agents and our lawyers, you know, to negotiate for, you know, for everything that, that, that there is to negotiate for. So every situation is different, every deal is different. Every at the timing of a deal matters. The project matters. The amount of competition looking to get the project matters. All of it comes into play. I would say our our tactic, I guess, or our way of negotiating has always been we talk amongst ourselves and figure out what our walkaway points are, you know, what are the points at? What are the points at which time? This deal doesn’t make any sense for us anymore. And as long as you know those for yourself, you’ll be fine and you’ll always feel good about a deal. It’s like because you’ll have decided I won’t do the deal unless X, Y and Z and you just you have to, you know, those x, y, and z change depending on the project, depending on the timing, depending on what else is going on in your life. And hopefully they’re based on reality and not based on things that you know, you make up in your own head of like, oh, I think I’m worth $3 million. You know, that’s my local point. Well, okay, I guess you’ll be walking away then, you know? So so, you know, it’s about it’s about being fair with yourself and being objective with yourself, about, you know, the worth of the project of yourself in the workplace, but also on the positive end, knowing like, hey, I am worth X amount of money or I am worth this amount of time. And so, you know, we’ve had those conversations with both networks and with other producers where it’s like, totally appreciate that that’s what you want and I will respect you for for you having your walkaway points. But if I can’t meet them, it can’t be any hard feelings. It’s like, all right, well, maybe someone else can meet them or maybe not. Maybe you’ll come back in a year and say, you know, my walk away points change. Whatever it is, it’s just it’s just knowing, knowing your own deal. Because ultimately, what what is an agent or an entertainment attorney? They are working on your behalf. Okay. So you have to tell them what you’re willing and not willing to do. I mean, to this day, my attorneys will send us stuff and it’d be like, all right, we think this is good, but you better read it and let us know if it’s good for you, you know? So so that’s important. So just know that, you know the entertainment attorney is not the end all be all. You know, do sex machina that’s going to come from this guy and launch your career. But they are a useful tool. So hopefully this is helpful for those of you looking for entertainment attorneys.

Biagio: Yeah. As for finding an entertainment attorney, and this is a wild card, I’m about to as joke a question that she’s not prepped for. And since I’m not editing this, the answer might be no. But hey, do our lawyers get a credit at the end of our show? The most lawyers get credits on shows?

Joke: I don’t think so.

Biagio: Oh, well, that’s not going to be helpful. Then. I was going to say one way to find attorneys might be just to look in the credits of TV shows, the kind of shows you want to pitch, but apparently they don’t get credit. So that’s not going to help.

Joke: You know, I mean, one of the things in preparation for this podcast, I googled entertainment attorneys in Los Angeles, and a lot of people came up and I don’t know if they’re any good or not. That’s up to you to vet them. But what did come up, which I thought was interesting, is every year, The Hollywood Reporter lists the 100 top entertainment attorneys. Now, you’re probably not going to get those attorneys right. I mean, those aren’t even our attorney, but they work at law firms that will have more junior attorneys who could potentially rep you. So I thought it was an interesting way of looking at different law firms and maybe reaching out to those law firms and saying, you know, hey, I’m looking for an entertainment attorney. And then they probably would guide you to, you know, the right kind of person. But at least that gives you the entertainment law firms that that are working in our business. And you should check because I think from the hundred, you know, some of them are music and some of them are litigation, which, you know, obviously you don’t need those at this point. Some of them are dealmaking. So, you know, just really figure out, you know, what stage you’re in and what you’re looking for from the attorney.

Biagio: Yeah. And I post a link to that article which you could just as easily Google yourself, but I’ll post a link to it in this episodes. Show notes this. Since this is episode 57 of Producing Unscripted, you’ll be able to find this episode at Producing Unscripted five seven again, producing unscripted five seven and you know and that’s it. We had a few people ask us about entertainment attorneys, so we thought we’d put this together for you. We hope you found it helpful. As always, if you’re looking to break into unscripted television, you know there’s no more friendly production company than good old joke productions owned by my wife and I. You can learn how to pitch us shows just by signing up for our newsletter at Producing unscripted. Com and following the directions. It can take us a little while to get back to you. When you pitch sometimes 4 to 6 weeks, sometimes 6 to 12 weeks, depending on how deep in production we are. This is something that we do for free because we like to find new producers to team up with. We have teamed up with many of you in the past, as you know, from listening to past podcasts. So again, if you are interested in working in on scripted television, be sure to check us out at Producing Unscripted. Sign up for the newsletter, follow directions, and pitch us a show so we can make some TV together. I think that’s going to wrap it up for this episode. We’ll be back again in two weeks, but for right now, we’re going to get back to the many TV shows we are working on. And again, my apologies for posting this with no intro music and no fancy fancy wraparound, but we wanted to give you the one to give you the straight dope. And we weren’t going to skip this week just because I didn’t have time to edit it. So this is going up raw and uncensored. Hope you enjoy it.

Joke: And we’ll see you in two weeks.

Biagio: Bye bye.